SF4: Dry Already?

Classic Fighting Games Street Fighter IV
101

Blame Facebook,Youtube,blog , videogamesites and the 100,000 fansites popping for every new games the day of their release.

Take for exemple Street fighter 3 Third strike.I doubt the day it’s was released you could find online the wholeHow to do this or that or what not blog thing or video about it.

That the problem for every new game.The thingies = .Street fighter had a lot of Hype and was released in Japan in July 2008(arcade) … So basicly a lot of us got worn out by all the Video and strategy guide by every little joe willing to spend time to write about it.

Seriously i started to play sf4 in july( i only play PC) … But before the game was even released i knew already all the move and priority and tactic to use in the game.So when the game started for the first time (july 7) … I basicly knew what i was going to see and feel.

Internet it’s a good thing.But i think it’s killed a bit of We want to find ourself … You know what i mean ?

Man the first time i played Metal gear solid on my ps1 … I purchased the game only because the artwork was very cool and the graphic looked cool behind.TOday before we purchase something we read 58425824952-059342-3 articles about it and look at 85904385043985435903 video.

I know your sensation.But that not just street fighter.
Also think about it.SF remain an arcade game.

Do you still love playing a pool game with friends?

102

None of these games really have a lot to learn. It is all just rock/paper/scissors. New combos isn’t considered new stuff. All that is needed to know with any of these games is priority of normals/specials, small easy to do and hit with combos starting with both a high and low hit, any ultra links, and hit confirmations. From there it is just rock paper scissors in wake up games and poking. Look at Daigo play, in 3S and SF4, it’s super simple fundamental basic stuff.

If this is dried up to you then you must just not like rock/paper/scissors (not chess). Chess is read and react, rock/paper/scissors is react and hope for the best. I think SF4 moved in the right direction with more defensive play, it moves closer to chess by reading and reacting, and it moves a little bit away from that instantaneous guessing game. It still isn’t perfect since there is still quite a bit of react without reading being possible.

To fully understand what I’m talking about, I’ll try to explain it a bit better. When someone says SF is a chess match they are wrong in their logic. A situation like shoryuken to a jump in is a chess reaction, they chose to do a jump in, you saw their choice and you countered it with a move of your own. Throwing someone on wake up because they guessed wrong isn’t a chess reaction, it’s a rock paper scissors reaction. If you really want to get a fighting game in the realm of chess you have to allow all actions to be reacted upon by seeing what is coming.

For instance in Evo we saw a sakura and an el fuerte which just played mix up games all day. They’re basically putting the fate of winning or losing to chance, and of course when they do that they’ll win some and they’ll lose some, but they’ll never win all, winning all should be possible, and would be possible if SF was like chess. Daigo is the closest we have to winning all, and it is because he plays a very basic style with limited mix up and uses a lot of hit confirmations before gambling for anything. If the entire game was designed around the way Daigo plays the game then I think the game would be a lot better.

103

so why dont you just play chess?

104

its too difficult…

:rofl:

105

For me, fighting games have the best combination of speed, strategy, guessing, and variety I’ve ever found in any game, and yeah, I have plenty of experience with games like chess (and backgammon, and poker, and RTS). You can have players who are all about strategy and getting into the opponent’s head, other players who are all about reactions, other players who are all about guessing well, etc, and they can all be among the best in their game. And if you’re not thinking about situations in Street Fighter at least 2-3 steps ahead, and if you’re not constantly trying to create situations that will pay off a few moves down the line, then you’re just not playing Street Fighter very well.

No, you didn’t see a Sakura who just played mixup games all day, what a retardedly simple way to look at things! What you saw was a Sakura player who put himself into good situations where he could then force the opponent into a bad situation, and his payoff for properly implementing his control of his opponent’s space and options was to be able to mix the opponent up. His game was not about mixups; his mixups were the result of him playing his game.

And when a guy dragon punches an opponent out of the air, do you really think that’s all that’s happened? It’s not. The dragon puncher put himself in a situation where the opponent had to approach; the dragon puncher then put himself in a situation where he could negotiate control of the ground with his opponent; he then negotiated that control in such a successful way that the opponent didn’t think he could approach on the ground (which can be done in any number of ways); the opponent, thinking he was out of options to approach, jumped; the dragon puncher recognized the opponent’s location in the air and likely air attack as a situation where his dragon punch would hit the opponent; and then the dragon puncher did a dragon punch. The dragon punch is the least interesting part of this scenario.

It’s flat-out ridiculous to call 2d fighters like Street Fighter rock-paper-scissors. Some characters don’t want to play that game at all, and for characters who do (like my main, Zangief), the guessing game is his payoff for forcing his opponent into a bad situation (the implementation of which is super interesting to me), and in any case the guessing isn’t balanced in anything like a 33-33-33 rps way. Even to the extent that some players and characters want to guess and make you guess all the time, their games need to be set up and once set up are weighted in some way that removes them from boring crap like rps

I don’t mean to be offensive, but man, you must really not have thought about these games very much to make a post like that.

106

I keep saying: SF IV isn’t perfect just like any fighting game,but it’s easily the most solid basic foundation of any SF.League better than SF 2 world warrior,Alpha 1,SF 3 a new generation.You can’t please everyone and I know plenty of people on SRK hate the game because it’s slow or too basic or because of the “bland” fighting engine.Yes,these flaws are certainly valid,but that doesn’t stop the game from being great imo. :wink: You can still pull off combos and I love the basic and technical SF vibe.The fantastic match between Daigo and Wong just prove that the game is damn good already.You can say these two could pull off an amazing match in whatever FG they play but I doubt it.I wouldn’t care if they played each other in a crappy game like MK vs DC or that fist of the north star FG. :razz: The game behind these players certainly did it part in giving us great matches.

If the first iteration of SF IV is this good,a proper update will be enough to make IV legendary.They could easily expand the roster to 40 characters,given how much characters were packed in the console version.If we have dash in 2010 or 2011,I can easily see 10+ characters including brand new ones.Capcom must surely be looking at Tekken 6 BR and the huge roster of 40 characters.

Capcom just need to take a year to polish up the IV fighting engine,add stages and characters.An arcade revision is also a given and include every character that will be in the console version this time.We will have a more accurate idea of tiers and no BS about the japanese losing because of console characters or them being banned in SBO or something.

So IV ending up being dry or not is irrelevant imo since I am 100% sure SF IV Dash/CE is coming and that’s the version that will ultimately be judged.

107

Well that’s the thing, you play Zangief. I play Zangief as well as my main so I understand where you’re coming from with the “payoff for setting that situation up” bit, in his case it is understandable. It can be really hard to get in on anyone, so hard in fact that I think it is impossible for Zangief to ever win any tournament against a competent player like say a Daigo or Jwong, he’s too one dimensional. Chances are you would never even get a chance to run that mix up game as Zangief on one of these players. But for a character like Sakura which people approach way differently, and has mobility, there is not as much to her setting up of a mix up game, and once it is set up you just see Sakura playing mix up games all day.

You assume I don’t understand these concepts you mentioned just because I cut it short and didn’t go into all that stuff that we already know. When I was talking about the shoryuken on the jump in guy, I wasn’t omitting everything that led up to that, that part was assumed to have happened. The point of that paragraph was just to represent my feelings about reaction based gameplay. A fighting game to me should be fully reaction based, the mix up games introduce rock-paper-scissors luck despite what it took to put yourself in that situation.

I think SF4 has moved in a good direction is all I meant because it does include more actual effort to set these instances up as opposed to say a 3S, guilty gears, or blazblue which are more about rushdown to the point where the setting up of the guessing games is much easier to accomplish. If the offensive player can initiate these mix up games almost at will then it becomes more RPS (luck) and less skill. I’m happy with the balance of SF4, but I think it should be taken even further away from RPS.

108

I think both of you are right to a certain extent, but I definitely agree with what UltraDavid is saying more.

I also think that Chess is not an apt analogy to Street Fighter. Does anyone have any experience with Go/ Wei Qi/ Baduk? I have thought for a long time that Street Fighter is definitely analogous to that as a game of strategy/ skill. In Go there is a basic principal called Sente/ Gote. Sente is a situation in which you have priority, and the move that you make MUST be responded to by your opponent. Gote on the other hand, is a move that is either a response or a move that does NOT have to be answered by your opponent, a wasted move.

This is a HUGE part of Street Fighter, having the momentum is very important, and while in SF you do have to guess sometimes, there is usually a ‘safest’ guess that you can make. I tend to play very low risk, and when I have the advantage, I try to milk it for all it’s worth.

Like I said before, I don’t think SF is a game of tricks, I think it is a game of strategy and skill. Tricks can get you wins sometimes, but I agree with UltraDavid about it being more about creating a bad situation for your opponent and exploiting that situation to it’s fullest potential.

So in my opinion, this is the type of game that has lasting power, especially with a few tweaks for balance. This is my opinion because games of tricks only last as long as the tricks work or are unknown, while games of strategy/ skill can have an infinite lifespan. (Go for example is over 2,000 years old!)

Oh and one more thing: personally I would not like to see a huge roster of characters, since that would only make the game even more difficult to balance. I think the arcade release of SFIV had a solid amount of characters. I’d love to have a game where every match-up is 5-5, but that may be a little bit much to ask…

109

Seth has low HP because if he had more, he’d be wildly incredibly broken.

I’m not sure I could agree with you more. Every fighting game is based on controlling the other player’s actions. If you’re scaring them into guessing what you’re going to do, you have the upper hand. If they’re forced to guess, then you put them in a situation where they have to.

Zero’s partly right too but I believe that, seriously, any character can beat any other character no matter who’s playing. Diago makes mistakes and players can use interesting tactics to win. A Geif can definitely get inside on a Ryu or a Rufus. You just have to be patient and make the right decisions. Those might involve not using grab moves much and focusing on pokes but eventually, your opponent will put themselves in a place where they can be grabbed and it’s your job to take advantage.

110

Very well put! A great example is getting knocked down by Fuerte.

111

Indeed! Gief vs. Fuerte is annoying for Gief because once he gets knocked down, he needs to guess right or Fuerte will keep him down.

The obvious solution is not to get knocked down but a smart Gief will know his options which I believe involve lariat, FA, backdash and block or something to that effect and use the one that counters the move that Fuerte has used most.

It’s all about tendencies people!

112

Well, chess has been around for how long, and new strategies are still being discovered… ultimately the game isn’t tapped out until strategies stop evolving

113

Street Fighter as just a reaction-based game would be shit. Any offense in SF4 is based on mixups, even with Dhalsim, Sagat, and Ryu. Do you throw the fireball or not? If you don’t throw the fireball, your opponent can just walk towards you and poke you. If you do, he can jump it and punish you if you’re not spaced right. Do you poke him instead? That requires getting your hands dirty. If he’s really concerned on jumping in on you, you might be able to just jump in on him instead! Mixups are all about ‘guaranteeing’ damage without giving the defender no chance to counter. When offense is good, then the game becomes all about who can force their opponent to give in to the mixup. Why do people get into fireball wars? Because they don’t want to deal with the opponent’s fireball trap. They’re refusing to give their opponent a free mixup. This gives both players a motivation not to just sit there and cheese - they have to be creative, but safe, in order to beat their opponent. That’s better than some sort of pre-established pattern of events that would happen in a reaction-based game.

Seth’s health is so low because his mixups and spacing are ridiculous. When you get into his divekick resets, you usually are constantly laughing at how easy it is to get damage on your opponent. Without a lucky block, jump, or DP, Seth will kill you off of reset -> mixup -> reset -> mixup -> mixup -> mixup -> mixup, etcetera. He just doesn’t lose steam until the opponent forces a hole in his offense. In exchange for this crazy offense, you have to be insane enough to play a character that can be full stun combo’d or even full damage combo’d by Chun.

Go to the Seth forums and watch some of Arturo’s videos. Seth doesn’t need more health. He’s perfect as is.

114

Actually I’ve played against Justin and just about all of the other top players in the US and done at least respectably, I’ve won and placed high in tournaments in SoCal, the largest and deepest region in the country, and I placed third at a major tournament that had some 100+ people (the only major tourney I’ve entered in 4). Gief is a fine character.

Fighting games have a great set of all sorts of different elements, but some are more guess-heavy or space-control-heavy etc than others. Do you play Super Turbo? You’d probably like it.

115

hey ultradavid ive always wondered how much battle points a tournament player like yourself not named daigo justin wong or any other one of those top guys have. im at around 3900 without disconnects and im wondering if im anywhere near u.

116

“
You assume I don’t understand these concepts you mentioned just because I cut it short and didn’t go into all that stuff that we already know. When I was talking about the shoryuken on the jump in guy, I wasn’t omitting everything that led up to that, that part was assumed to have happened. The point of that paragraph was just to represent my feelings about reaction based gameplay. A fighting game to me should be fully reaction based, the mix up games introduce rock-paper-scissors luck despite what it took to put yourself in that situation.”

Honestly if that was the case then nobody would ever make a move. first person to do anything would get countered.

117

Because chess doesn’t have Psycho Power…

118

I don’t really play online, man. Most of the SoCal guys don’t, there’s just no need when there are so many arcades around. I know some of the Northeast players and a couple SoCal guys play online, but when they do it’s almost always just in player matches with people they already know. I have something like 7-8k bp messing around and not taking the game seriously with Dan and Gouken, haven’t played online in weeks, and when I did it was only for like 30 minutes at a time until I got too annoyed with the lag and the players.

Pistola, I think he’s using that phrase reaction-based to just mean that he thinks they’re shouldn’t be guessing. Which is pretty crazy, of course, since every time two humans compete against each other in anything, there’s guessing. Guessing what strategy the opponent will use and making educated guesses about what his next move will be are pretty much inescapable. Only question is, how much guessing does the game have, a lot or a minimum? It’s the same way in fighters, where you have games like 3S that are tilted a little more towards guessing (this isn’t an attack, it’s just what the game is and there’s nothing at all wrong with liking that) and games like ST that are tilted a little towards the minimum. Frankly fighters in general are more guess-y than some games and less guess-y than a lot of others, but imo that’s a pretty cool thing (as long as it doesn’t get out of hand, like imo it does in 3S).

119

Fully reaction based fighting is why you have 8-2 and 9-1 matches in super turbo. Matches where barring a massive execution mistake by the opponent you can’t win because he has a reaction to everything you could possibly do. I love super turbo and all but I don’t really want a new 21st century game to have honda vs feilong matchups. Setting up situations where there is a guess involved but where the odds are heavily stacked in your favor is the heart of fighting games. A game like the one you suggest would be pointless to even play, neither player would move first.

120

I came in here with the intention of hearing some mega fuckin bullshit captain of the tug boat bullshit. I was even thinking of somthing clever to say.

But Damn man. You hit the nail on the head. The thought line about “This stifles innovative use of the FADC system.” Pure Genius.

Not what I could have ever thought to have imagined.