But what does this really matter, Gen can do things that Rufus can’t do, and vice-versa. Different characters having different learning curves is hardly new. I mean, how could yeb “apply the same principles” as a FADC hands combo to Rufus? The whole point of FADC mk hands is that you can launch into a really damaging combo off a 5 frame poke from half a screen away - Rufus can’t do that.
Who cares about whether one character requires more effort than another to play, especially when theres ~20 characters to choose from.
I meant Seth not Sagat…I actually piick Gief on purpose when folks pick Sagat
Your not seeing what I’m talking about, I’m not talking about homogenizing the characters or their playstyles, I’m talking the requirement for depth. Of the tourny tested and approved top-tier, how many of them require anything with even midly difficult execution? I’m not talking has something difficult, but to play at a high level, do any of the top teir require in-depth execution to be effective? Lets be 100 honest here. What good is a CV who can’t combo? Now compare that to Ryu, just because the ryu can’t consistently link c.mp c.mp, doesn’t take JACK away from his effectiveness. Combos make him better, but you win with Ryu from more so strategy/mind games than execution or testing the boundaries o the engine. Same goes for Sagat. You don’t even NEED the threat of double rh ultra to be effective with him…yes it helps, but he can be played without any tricky execution.
So what is the point in digging deeper and deeper into an engine that doesn’t give great rewards for doing so? As folks have mentioned, look at the 30+ Sakura combo. You go thru all that work…for what? I’m not saying anyone is making a poor choice maining one of the more difficult characters, but I’m saying the engine feels dull because frankly, your only really adding challenge for yourself picking those characters.
Compare it to MvC2. Look at MSP. They have IMO some of the most ‘broken’ options in the game. There is a reason you see them on most tourny teams. But in the same vein of being deep characters, its actually rewarding. In no flavor of MvC2 does the dmg scaling make tempest combos ‘dumb’…you want to keep going because the dmg maintains its ‘insane levels’. In this game, yeah its nice to have some longer combos/strings/tactics, but all they really come down to are more oppurtunties to mess up, catch a mashed dp into ultra/spd/messiah whatever.
I’m all for more complicated characters, I’ve recently picked Gen up because of watching some of the mk->hands stuff, but because he’s fresh to me after coming from Gief, I’m in awe at how much work it is to do dmg, and how easy it is to mess up and pay for it worse than you can give it. I’m sorry its just nt fun trying to string together a 10 hit for like 300-400 pts, when if I mess up the timing on a FADC, I catch a reversal->ultra for 400-600.
I understand what you’re saying but I don’t agree that that’s a bad thing: I actually think Gen and C. Viper’s execution barriers kind of suck. I don’t like that you can’t “really” play Gen without being able to piano or slide hundred hands off a normal: that basically totally shuts out everyone casually playing on a controller, or who is interested in aggressive characters like C. Viper or Gen but can’t actually execute those things. I got on the Gen train early - I can basically always link a forward off hands now, but when I was learning Gen I basically couldn’t play him online because I got so angry messing up that hands -> forward link on ryu’s mashing.
I think what I can agree with is that there is a huge disparity in SF4 between the level of skill required to defend and the level of skill required to attack. For a LOT of characters, attacking properly means 1 or 2 frame links, knowledge of what is safe and unsafe against a particular character. Performing a cross-up may require you to time the jump with extreme accuracy to avoid a reversal. You need to be able to safe jump certain characters, you need to be conscious of your opponent’s meter. You need to be able to read what kind of opponent you’re playing and figure out if you need to break out the kiddy gloves and bait wake up shoryukens/ultras.
A dude like Gen is just a symptom of that because his offense is so much more technical than anyone else’s, and he can’t rely on random BS like fireballs, FADC into ultra, or random uppercuts. So what happens is chars like Gen and C. Viper are “hard”, but they’re way harder than they need to be because what they naturally do is hard.
That’s the biggest flaw of SF4 IMO: the risk/reward for attacking may be off in general, but at a sort of beginner/intermediate level of play, it can be really really off. The answer to me, is to make links easier perform and reversals “hard” enough that you can’t just mash them through a blockstring, but not so hard that it’s like super turbo and you actually fail to get a reversal sometimes. Obviously though that’s like the opposite of people who want the game to be even more technical. There’s something messed up about two Ryus fighting, and a Ryu who wants to combo jab to medium kick to fireball needs just frame timing, but the Ryu who wants to do an uppercut needs to get within 10 frames to make it work and there’s no penalty for failing to execute since you’re doing it in hit stun. But I don’t think that really has to do with whether the game is “dry”, just whether it’s fun.
I def am 100% with you on that, I think you worded what I was trying to say, better than I could heh.
I’m iffy on execution barriers. If they are there, they should yield huge advantages. MvC2, great triangle jumping or /wave dashing yields to a huge advantage. SF4, it seems to ‘catch you up’ to what the character is supposed to be capable of. shrug
Dude i really don’t care about what vibe your getting. The fact is you misstated by thinking I bitch about specific tactics. Period.
I have no problem with however people want to play. Im just stating that many people play as such. Yes, I have a problem with lag somtimes… what the hell are you trying to say from quoting me on that? Everybody gets lag, its a part of the game. And I never said “this is why i think sf4 is drying up as a game” again, your pulling quotes out of your ass.
These are things that bring up the discussion. And about the damage scaling thing let me try to put it to you in this perspective… a better way to keep the characters and all of their various features alive during battle is simply more damage for more hits because it provides incentive to strive for harder and more complex gameplay during combos. NOW, this isn’t to say that combos are going to be infinate or that characters can set up things as easily as they can right now. It was simply an idea that I personally like to change up the style of the game. If you don’t thats fine, but its nothing to PMS over.
OT
speaking of “ought to know better”, i woke up this morning and whent for a morning piss, to my horrific discovery i just pissed a yoga flame… got an appointment with my doctor tomorrow
do you honestly belive that the amount of dmg and stun would be the same if they had gone the route without or lower amount of scaling on combos?
DOnt worry. this game should probably be around for 10 years. Until they come out with Street fighter 5… with 38 accessible characters and infinite combos
There is a still a bit to find out in this game but I have to agree that we found out data and info about the depth in the game way quicker than in the past and that is what contributes to the quick dryness.
Still a great game and play whenever I get the chance and watching pros go at it is still fun, so there is still that.
