SF4 Dash Guile fixes

Classic Fighting Games Ultra Street Fighter IV
21

Right? I mean, from a character perspective Guile kind of boggles me. He’s an American soldier, he’s clearly highly trained, he’s a part of the Air Force, yet to me a lot of the characteristics in terms of fight style don’t add up. Guile has like…one or two extremely safe moves beyond the normal jab etc. His far standing fierce is relatively safe, it has good range, stuffs a lot of things, etc. His sonic boom recovery time makes him one of the better projectile throwers in that he can still block many ultras that pass through projectiles and punish accordingly.

Yet looking at his flash kick, his sweep, his bazooka knee, his ultra, his super, his low forward, his upside down kick, his down forward roundhouse kick, these are all surprisingly unsafe and oddly all kicks. His flash kick’s huge recovery time, his sweep’s outrageously unsafe 2 hit style, his bazooka knee giving your opponent massive frame advantage for successfully hitting, obviously his ultra/super issues, his low forward takes almost twice as long as other forwards to come out also with less range, and his upside down kick takes forever to come out as does his down forward roundhouse.

22

You fine with the current Ultra/Super setup? :I

Maybe Capcom is considering Guile’s age…40+ iianm, he should be abit slow+lazy in fighting :lol:

But wait…how about Gen then?? Gen can crossup insanely with his unique jumping arc + j.forward kick regardless his age :xeye:

23

Supposedly Capcom is reading the SRK forums, and hopefully they’ll take some of your advice.

Guile is considered low tier, and not tournament viable compared to the recent tourney’s.

2 frame links would be nice, and connecting the ultra somehow. Oh, and the stamina and stun…seriously, the guy is already hard to use due to his 1 links, low damage output…and he only has 100 stun/stamina more than Akuma - which is a ‘stonger’ character?

Get on it Capcom! **DO IT! DO IT! **(Starsky & Hutch style)

24

Hehe, it’s funny to read this in how much more level-headed it is than some of the SF4 dash threads for the mid tier characters. Go to the blanka forums if you want some good lol’ing.

All in all, that’s a close to perfect writeup. EX sonic boom having an alternate, slower version, knockdown, and a faster recovery (along with his other strength booms) are all necessary and brilliant. I also think guile should build maybe 20-30% more meter for each thrown boom… but that might be a bit much if you are already going to increase the damage, recovery, utility, and knockdown.

One big fix to flashkick would be in it’s arc. Currently, the thing seems to pivot forward from guile’s head, scooting him forward a bit during the startup. This is extremely apparent during his hk, ex, and ultra. If flashkick travelled strait up without sacrificing it’s current horizontal range, I would consider it a huge buff. If you did that, made it move up faster, and made it’s startup to 3 frames I think it would solve the whole crossup problem. Other than that, copy/paste what gilley said.

b/f mk and upside down kick need to have some unthrowable frames. It would be a big help in the abel matchup, but even without abel, I’ve been normal thrown out of b/f mk when it’s animation has been clearly off the ground. For shame!

Vote yes on 2 frame c.lp > c.mp link. Giving c.lp 1 frame more hitstun would also make some cool shit possible like c.lp > c.lp > s.hp xx super. Sick!

I would be redundant in mentioning much else, as it’s already covered pretty solid. Sonic hurricane wouldn’t fix everything wrong in the world of guile’s ultra, but it’s definately a step in the right direction. The only real practical way to combo a sonic hurricane with the current build would be to intentionally trade a hk flashkick and juggle it. I think I’d be cool with just a couple more ultra setups though. FK xx FADC > ultra would be nice but does this game really need another character that can do that?

I say make df.hk a practical juggler. There is NOTHING overpowered about df.hk > flashkick. It would only do maybe 200 damage since the flashkick would not get a sweetspot hit. However, I would say the hitbox for the actual kick does need a little help. Not a lot mind you… it should be a hard hit to connect with to get that big a reward for an anti-air. In the current build though, it’s near impossible to land on some characters like ryu or dictator.

I’m still torn about what fuson said in the other thread though about how “SF4 dash will play nothing like the current build.”

What do you know, little man?

WHAT DO YOU KNOW!

25

Honestly, this seems to go for the Guile thread as a whole; the people who reside on the Guile forums have been the most helpful, normal people I’ve met on the SRK forums. The people’s responses, almost on a whole, are wicked helpful and it gives me a lot of respect for everyone here.

26

Great writeup Gilley.

Although I certainly welcome all the changes in the list, these are the things that I would really like to see in prioritized order:

  1. Modify the flash kick to be more usable by doing some or all of the following:
    [list]
    []more overhead/cross up protection
    [    ]more invincibility
    [*]more damage so even if it trades its worth it (200+, but less than EX snake strike).
    [/list]

  2. 15-20% damage boost or 10-15% life boost.

  3. Change c.lp to c.mp a 2 frame link (probably not going to happen unless it becomes a global change)

These I consider to be more of bugfixes then features of SF4 dash:

  1. Airthrow immediately after leaving the ground
  2. Why doesn’t the ultra give full damage as an anti air, that’s the intent of the FK afterall…
  3. Boom recovery to be the same regardless of strength, including EX
  4. Range improvement, especially on his step kick

I really like the idea of the roundhouse requiring 2 hks to complete and the ability to combo into it like Ryu and Akuma can would be nice, even if its a 1 frame link (just add it to the list of his other 1 frame links).

27

It’s hard out here for a Guile; we have to stick together.:tup:

28

More life. More damage. Normal stun rating. Autocorrect on FK. Knockdown and less recovery on exBoom. 2 frame links on c.lp -> c.mp. More lenient super/ultra motion. I don’t know if bringing sonic hurricane would completely solve the ultra problems. Maybe if they gave Guile another option or two to juggle the current ultra then maybe it would make opponents fear it more. And for god sakes they really need to do something about the c.RH. On block I’ve even been thrown before the second sweep. You can’t throw Akuma before the second kick of his s.RH can you?!

edit: I really do like the technical nature of the current Guile. Without a reliable ultra it just makes winning strictly with normals, ridiculous footsies, and good gameplay that much more satisfying. Good read btw Gilley.

29

I think the down forward roundhouse should have less start up so you can use it as an AA like the old SF2 games.

Flash kick and go over the head and it should have a frame increase on invincibility.

His low forward should have more range and priority.

His super should be like HD remix motion.

Strengthen his vitality a little more

30

As far as an easier super motion, I’m not sure I really do like his super motion. I don’t think it’s that mandatory to combo into ultra. As long as the rest of Guile’s game is air tight, there will be less need to land his ultra in matches.

I do hope in SF4 Dash they add a new mechanic like selectable super/ultras. To me it seems like the next logical step. In that case, sonic hurricant won’t be out of the realm of possibility.

Edit: I really hope if they do buff Guile they don’t make him a retarded character. I know I enjoy Guile because of the finnese and technical ability to make him effective. It’s nice to give him buffs, but I really would like for Capcom to avoid making him a braindead character. Part of Guile’s appeal is his mindgames, and his reliance on just solid fundamentals. I really wouldn’t like Capcom to give him any retarded or gimmicky bullshit. And for the record, I really don’t see an issue with giving him recovery on a whiff flash kick. It’s punishment you deserve if you whiff it. I just want Capcom to do this across the board. Whiff DPs seem harded to capitalize on because they DO have decent recovery (but very punishable). It really do seem like Capcom worked a little too much on shotos in this game, and not enough on Guile. But that’s for another topic, I don’t want to rant on it too much.

31

Totally agree they worked on the shotos way too much and there are way too many of them. You have to look out for a damn DP type move on every damn character. Not saying that people shouldn’t have wakeup defense but I’m just sick of that wakeup move. They really need to go straight old school and just have Ryu, Ken, and Akuma as the only shoto type characters, get rid of Sakura & Dan then bring in other characters such as Cody, Rolento, Sodom, Guy, etc. Nuff said.

32

That’s some funny shit over there. “BAWW!! CAN IT BE GOD TIER TIEM NAO?!!”

33

well explained Gilley,

here would be my order of priority (ala BlitzJS)

  1. Flash kick: mix in some SSF2 and slight MvC2 luv

    • reduce all FK recovery by 5 frames or more.
    • lk and Ex with 3 frame start ups.
    • mk with SSF2 style arced hit box and range for AA functions
    • dmg increase lk=140, mk=160, hk=2x90, Ex=2x90+60
    • hk and Ex with SSF2 style 2 hits but overlaps arced hit boxes and range of lk and mk.
      ** Ex gains AA projectile (ala MvC2) for added juggle function.*

  2. Sonic Boom: dmg and versatile

    • reduce all SB recovery by 1-3 frames.
    • lk and Ex with 3 frame start ups.
    • dmg increase lp=60, mp=70, hp=80, Ex=2x60.
    • Ex has 3 variable speeds: real slow, medium, real fast.
    • Ex recovery corresponds with lp-hp SB speeds.
    • Ex can knock down until Guile recovers.

  3. Super/Ultra: old Flash Kick input and 2nd option Sonic Hurricane

    • FK gets old input (see Gilley’s OP)
    • FK ultra gets 1st hit vid like Ken; 3 slow AA FK if 1st hit far.
      ** SH gets SvC luv as 2nd Super and fair recovery.
    • SH gain vacuum effect and vid finish as 2nd Ultra.*

  4. Other: Normals, S.normals, Movement

    • j.mk cross up
    • some crouching 2 frame links
    • s.normals dmg +10; backfist dmg +30
    • bazooka improved recovery
    • cr.hp semi launch like Abel
    • new bazooka input
      ** Air Dash, MvC2 style, with more speed and reach than ground dash; better jump game.*

honestly, are suggested Mvc2 edits too powering?

34

You have to be careful with buffing Guile because if he gets too good then the game becomes boring because no one can touch him. He goes even with Balrog, Gief, Dhalsim, Seth, Ken, Fuerte, Vega, Abel (possibly chun) already, and has the advantage against Dictator already. He’s not THAT bad.

He just has a disadvantage in all the other matches.

I think maybe the better solution is to nerf other characters so that they are a little less good at dealing with Guile. For example, maybe Sagat could have a bigger (taller) hitbox in his kick tiger shots so that he could be hit by Guile’s forward+fierce if he trades one with a sonic boom.
Then we nerf Sagat’s damage and this counter matchup could turn even.

35

I personally believe that U.S. American Guile is unable to do so because some people out there don’t have MvC2, such as in South Africa and the Iraq.:looney:

Seriously though, MvC is a different game and I don’t like the idea of projectile FK’s and air dashing and what have you making their way into this engine. Does anyone else feel this way?

36

I wouldn’t be in favor of an airdash but I wouldn’t mind a projectile FK. although I’d still prefer the current one with a better arc since its more traditional.

I agree with Branh that Guile doesn’t HAVE TO need the ability to combo into his ultra. I don’t want 1000 setups for his ultra and to make him a rush down character like Rufus. I like his current playstyle but he just needs a few tweaks here and there to even up some matchups. Although he’s generally considered the second worse arcade character, I don’t think he’s that far off from being middle of the pack. I honestly think giving his FK more cross up protection (anti air protection as well) and loosening the timing of his c.lp c.mp link would make him at least middle of the pack, if not higher.

37

:rofl: hehe, had to put my two cents in on this comment. Guile players are more level headed, hehe. Thats because of the flat top dude. Can’t get more level headed than that.

Noting on what Gilley said, bravo dude. I agree with most of what was said. I’m torn about the knockdown on Guile’s EX boom. If EX boom had the recovery of is l.boom, you could combo after it nicely. But I’d be happy either way.

One thing I’m afraid of with the changes is making everyone play the same essentially. Having small differences between one persons fb and another persons sb gives them more character. As long as Guile has super fast recover after his booms, I’ll be happy.

I desperatly want his Flash kick to hit both sides so that he can get out of wakeup games. And bazooka knee is almost useless, like his cf.roundhouse.

38

Wouldn’t mind his upside down kick and sobat kicks to instantaneously count him as being in the air as soon as the animation starts. I get low hit out of it a lot with it’s outrageous start up time =(.

39

This certainly is a relevant topic, and has generated some great discussion. I don’t have the credentials of some of our fellow members, and at the risk of exposing my ignorance of Guile’s heritage through the ages, here are my thoughts.

I don’t think Guile needs an overhaul… just some subtle augmentation.

  • Better cross-up defense. Faster dash would sort of solve, right? Focus x-up, bdash?
  • Better cross-up offense. J.lk leaves a lot to be desired, mainly in terms of hit-stun. So either make J.mk x-up, or increase hit-stun of j.lk (although 11 frames seems standard across the board- but other chars have other options).
  • 2 command normals have almost 0 use as far as actually inflicting damage goes (bazooka knee, d/f hk). These have been addressed in previous posts.
  • Slight damage increase to normals (since any Guile user must be highly proficient with them in the first place). This may be the simplest/most effective way to elevate his status… more damage output over the course of an entire round should have the effect of place Guile in a more favorable position towards the end of the round… and reduce the amount of cursing done in capcom’s name for not giving Guile a standard fadc-comboable ultra.

FK is flawed, but tolerable. The varying recovery speed on the SB doesn’t cripple (although I understand the history here… it was never broke, so why even modify it all?). It would be nice if there were more ways to land the ultra, but it’s not the definitive answer to enhancing the character.

This is, of course, barring any drastic engine/other character modifications from in Dash…

40

or at least make them hit crouching characters. Its annoying to see the upside kick go over a sweep, only to whiff…