Seth Killian comments on the current state of fighting games... from the past!

Current Fighting Games Fighting Game Discussion
141

You can respect dumb troll posts? Anyway, let’s bring it back to your flawed suggestion earlier. You don’t like SFIV, don’t play it. Duly noted, if you don’t like people discussing negatively about the game, don’t read them or let yourself be bothered by it. I’m sorry you think the game is perfect and no-one can speak bad about it but its not going to stop.

The thing is, its not so much people want to play online, its that is the best and most practical option. I can respect and understand why someone would say I don’t want to play online, but at the same time its limiting yourself and interacting with other players not normally accessible.

142

Just wondering something about those who don’t like the SF IV series. As we all know, even if SF IV is a shitty game, it brought tons of new players to the scene, and of course to SRK. What are you doing about it? Do you try to intrdouce them to the games you like and think that they are better? Interdouce to GGPO/Kalliea/SA?

Saying that SF IV is shitty won’t help, but showing them other games that are great can only benefit both sides

143

I don’t understand why Mr_Awesome is getting so much shit. Actually I guess I do, it’s because you guys are looking at the details of what he’s saying and totally missing the point rather than appreciating the general idea of what he’s getting at. Firstly, you have to accept that “Capcom, stop making design decisions to cater to casual players” is simply not a realistic request. If you actually care about the future of SF in any real way the question you should be trying to find an answer to is “how can we accomodate casual players while causing minimal damage to high level play?” Making low-level players feel like they’re capable of doing decent damage without having to learn all the arcane (to them) combo tricks that competitive players use is one way. This is not “dumbing down;” the difference in ST between, say, a j.RH, cr.RH combo and a max-damage jump-in combo is not that big (ignoring the few practical TODs), yet nobody would claim that game is dumbed down. ST is a great example because even in high level play you see the really difficult execution is optional. Yeah, there are players who will go for the difficult combos but then even players like Sirlin, who can’t do a combo to save their lives even with perhaps the most combo-oriented character (Dictator) can still top 8 in tournaments.

I think the competitive community has done itself a disservice with the way it’s complained about the mashy motions in SF4. I agree SF4 takes it too far given that you actually can’t get the move you want sometimes because of how relaxed the motions are, but with many players this is not their sole complaint; mostly they consider it offensive to their SF ideals that a casual player could pick up the game and be able to do all the moves without practicing for hours on end. I am not against rewarding solid execution in fighting games, but do we really need to reward it on the level of doing the basic moves? If your answer to that is “yes,” where does it stop? Maybe fireballs should have a 4 frame window to execute, since that rewards skill? Ultimately such complaints make you look like hard-headed children who are unwilling to budge on even the most irrelevant issues, in which case it should be no surprise Capcom doesn’t listen to you. The future of SF is here like it or not and if we want to stop games getting totally ruined in the name of casual appeal (and I agree SF4 was a gross step in the wrong direction in many ways) we have to be willing to take a look at what things should really matter to us and be malleable with regard to things that are not.

At the same time I think Capcom has a duty to not simply operate on their perceptions of what hardcore and casual players really want, but actually go and find out. If it’s necessary to make game-damaging concessions to casual players then actually work with some casual players and figure out the minimum amount of change necessary (something they clearly didn’t do with SF4’s ridiculous input windows), or better yet, as SweetJohnnyV said, go back to the source of the problem and see if there’s a way the game can be retooled so casual players are accomodated without damaging high-level play. Also bear in mind casual players’ problems often stem from a lack of knowledge rather than a lack of ability.

One example (if you don’t want to read my “fantasy game design” ramblings you can safely skip this part). You may think the idea is lame but that’s beside the point, it just demonstrates how you can go back to the source of a problem and take a novel approach rather than implementing the most obvious fix that damages the game. So the reversal window in SF4 is huge and skews the balance in wakeup games far further in the favor of the guy on the ground than has been the case in any previous SF. The problem is that hard reversals, while working at high level play, don’t accomodate casual players. Doing a reversal is pretty similar to “being able to do the moves” and casual players resent when they can’t do the moves. So Capcom has implemented the most obvious fix and the game is kind of messed up because of it. So how can we do it better?

Well firstly we can look at if reversals are even necessary at all (it’s debatable how much they have been ever since you’ve been able to jump out of throws), but I’ll accept that maybe not being able to do a move when you’re getting up would be unintuitive at this point. Given that, how about implementing some kind of wakeup-specific move system, like 3D games? You press this button and you get one move on wakeup, or press another and you get a different move. The moves could be different from character to character and balanced accordingly; one character has no options other than block, another has a high-priority move that beats everything but is very unsafe on block (DP analogue), but most have moves somewhere in between; maybe one character can beat meaty jumpins but not ground moves, or vice versa, some characters have to guess whether you’ll meaty high or low or using punch or kick in order to reversal, one character can beat crossups, etc…

You can now have a 60 frame window to do these moves like 3D games because they’re balanced around their own properties and the rest of the character’s move set, not simply being difficult to do. You actually have opened up more room for character variety because no longer does a character with an invincible DP necessarily have to also have an awesome wakeup game simply by virtue of having a DP. Combine a system like this with education for the casual player on how it works (and it’s not like it’s particularly complex) and you’ve effectively solved the problem without the damaging effect on high level play… in fact you may even have enhanced high level play.

144

Heh, I knew what I was getting into when I signed onto these boards. I expected to get a lot of flak. But yeah, this is getting too focused on nitpicking the specifics and overlooking the basic message.

And I never said that learning complex combos is the only thing you need to do to win. I was just saying that in a lot of modern games, learning the combos is a major focus and you’re never going to even do an okay job until you learn your combos. There’s nothing wrong with that, to a degree – I play Guy in Street Fighter Alpha 3, so I’m obviously not completely against this type of character design – but it’s starting to feel like it’s the only type of design there is. I’m really just saying that accessibility is one of the things that made Street Fighter 2 so popular.

Obviously the competitive players should be catered to, but not at the expense of the masses. The competitive players aren’t numerous enough to equal big sales, by themselves. Street Fighter IV is a direct reaction to this realization. They made Third Strike as technical as possible, but saw that it was only appealing to a small audience, and they wanted a big audience back.

And Street Fighter IV and Third Strike have much in common. Much more than ST and SF4. Two button throws with startup times that can be completely teched. Slow normals with very precise hitboxes. Low damage level. Two button taunts. Dashing. EX moves. Much looser juggling rules. Ground recovery. Capcom Fighting Jam is similar in feel, though obviously not in specifics, since it’s trying to simulate the different games.

Yes, I don’t know what engine means. I picked that up somewhere and keep misusing it. I’ll probably do it again. Feel free to mock me each and every time. It’s the only way I’ll learn.

145

I respect his post because it made me laugh, and I think there’s a nugget of truth to it.

Every time you replay it makes me want to just ignore you even more. I don’t think it’s a perfect game by any means and I have never said anything to indicate that. Hell I don’t even think it’s a great game. It’s probably my least favorite last-in-series Street Fighter game (except Alpha 3, sorry guys!) But it’s fun and like Eksh said, it’s done a lot for the scene. Being negative about it isn’t helping anyone, and quite frankly all I’ve seen from you is negativity.

Online play is not equivalent to offline play. I’m not limiting myself by strictly playing offline. Lag changes the way the game is played; crossups for example become much much more difficult to block. That said, GGPO is pretty damn good, i’ve had good experiences with it. However I mostly play SSF4 now, and SF4 netcode just doesn’t stack up. But still there’s the issue of removing the social aspect that I can’t get past.

I don’t see what’s so difficult about just not complaining. Since when has complaining ever been a good thing? There are other ways of getting your point across. If you don’t like the game, don’t play it, and don’t complain about it. Consider this my last response to you.

146

SFIV netcode is flawed, I can vouch for this. But playing online isn’t necessarily saying you must deal with lag.

Nor is someone speaking negatively about SFIV meaning it is complaining about it; but discussion and providing opinions. Its already been agreed online is not equivalent to offline but that’s something that’s tolerated more or less. I agree with the social aspect, but things such as voice chat, typing can help fill the void to an extent.

147

My problem with SF4 is that it doesn’t know what it wants to be. It makes some concessions to ‘casuals’ and then forgets about them completely with its unforgiving link system, FADCs and ‘old school’ tendon-destroying mash moves. The things that they shoehorned into the game to give it some kind of identity (ultras, focus attacks) feel like forced attempts to add some sizzle to an otherwise bland and lifeless engine.

148

i get what you are saying but it was a little far off from what i was talking about

149

I like SF4 but it does a lot of crap I hate. Jus saying. Cody’s been a lot of fun so far though and doesn’t feel like he’s wading through a thick fog all the time which is nice.

Also can someon explain to me how SFIII is super technical cuz man if you ask me that games really simple. I think it has the perfect execution barrier. You gotta be on when you do a combo or even a move but it’s not a frustrating experience learning it. Parry is the simplest command on earth just using it is a matter of learning to predict right (That’s not technical that’s just learning character flow honestly) and things like Charge Partition take work but not mass hours to see the signs of progress. After that the games mostly Target Combos and spam best poke that hit confirms into Super, rinse repeat. It’s not a super technical game or even that hard to play just getting good takes a while due to the power of the subsytem.

Really the Alpha seris, especially 3 is far more technical and exacution demanding in my opinion. That series is pretty much CC or bust.

150

Well, it’s pretty technical for a Street Fighter, anyway. I mostly meant there’s a lot of stuff you have to learn and it’s all very precise. I guess in the grand scheme of fighting games, it’s pretty simple. I avoid virtual combos at all costs, so I never think of Alpha 3 as being technical, but I guess it is.

They did fix some stuff in SF4. Like Dee Jay’s close roundhouse is actually good now! I sometimes wondered if that thing had a hitbox at all in SFA3.

151

I think it’s pretty ridiculous how “games got too technical” has become the dominant narrative for explaining the death of the fighting game in the mainstream. I think far more obvious reasons are a lack of 3D visuals (notice the major 3D fighting game franchises thrived during the period Capcom produced nothing) and a lack of real single-player content (remember that Alpha 3, with its still pretty bare-bones World Tour mode, sold very well). During the PlayStation era the mainstream press was, largely, really fucking eager to get away from 2D graphics for a variety of reasons (associated with the old consoles for kids whereas the most notable success of the PS was its marketing to adults, were still busy being wowed by first-gen 3D which in retrospect looks absolutely awful compared to the 2D of the time, etc.) and I think were less prepared to give anything 2D a chance because of that.

There’s also the fact that Capcom had totally saturated the market with games casual players couldn’t tell apart, since to a casual player if it doesn’t have new and improved graphics and/or brand new single player content it’s basically the same game. I’m sure everyone here remembers the Vampire series being described/criticized as “Street Fighter with monsters” in the mainstream gaming press when, other than both being 6 button 2D fighters, the series play almost nothing alike. If Capcom started producing fighters now at the same kind of rate the same thing would happen again.

152

No, they play very similairly… to a casual. It’s why the “Street Fighter with monsters” thing came about. You’ve got your ‘Ryu’ in Dimitri and your ‘Ken’ with Morrigan, your ‘Dhalsim’ in Zabel/Raptor and your ‘Gief’ in that one Frankenstein dude who’s name I forget. Of course, when you’re using these characters to their respective potentials their playstyle resembles next to nothing of their ‘sources’ (using the word ‘sources’ loosely, here), but you can see why a casual player would just think it was a slightly different Street Fighter if they didn’t explore the game. I doubt they even knew the system had magic series combos.

Which is what I think is the problem with fighting games as a general rule. Outside of stuff like focus attacks, parries, ultras and what have you (overt system specific niches), it’s really, really hard to tell the difference between fighting games without actually investing some real time with them against some real competition (there being barely enough ‘real competition’ to go around playing all these different FG’s in the first place), which is why, as you said, something like World Tour mode is attractive to the casuals.

153

I’d like to point out that those 3-d fighters were mostly very accessible. Though very technical and deep, you could mash on the buttons and do pretty cool stuff in Tekken. This goes along with what I’ve been saying: giving low end players easy ways to do stuff equals sales.

I’ve been thinking about how oversaturation was definitely a problem. SNK did it even more than Capcom, and everybody else had to try it at least once, so we had Mortal Kombat, Killer Instinct, Fighter’s History, Weaponlord, Primal Rage, etc. on top of Capcom and SNK’s deluge. Now that the smoke has cleared and only the best remain, there’s still a ton of viable games left, just in 2-d: three versions of Street Fighter 2 (four if you ban Bison in Champion Edition), Fatal Fury Special, Real Bout Special and 2, Mark of the Wolves, Darkstalkers 2 and 3, at least one version of Street Fighter III, Street Fighter Alpha 2 and 3, Samurai Shodown 2 and 5 Special, and several versions of King of Fighters (not sure which ones are tournament viable, but I know a good few are). And that’s a short list, which intentionally leaves off some borderline cases. How is one to choose what game to learn? It’s no wonder so many were and are overlooked. Capcom and SNK shot themselves in the foot, dooming most of their games to be lost in the crowd. People were already getting burned out by the time Super Street Fighter 2 came out, and Capcom and SNK were really only getting started at that point.

154

The sales problem with making a game/genre more hardcore, is that you “preach to the choir”, and you limit the pool of potential players more and more, as some leave with each passing game. It’s kinda similar to the crash the Japanese Anime industry has.

It can become a death spiral if you don’t have new stuff every new and then. The key is to make a game have casual appeal, in ways that don’t devolve the good points of the game.

The easy reversals in SF4 don’t ruin the game. A reversal is stil a high-risk move (barring FADC, but not getting into that). It just means that the mindgames that at’s high level is now much more accessible to others.

most of the problems of SSF4 are due to the ultra and combo systems, not the controls.

As for KOF, smaller communities need the netplay more then bigger ones. SF4-quality netplay would be sufficient for KOF to do well, casuals would call it good, experts would bitch, but would tolerate it.
That said, a smaller community makes lag worse- as your average distance between players increases- this is true no matter the netcode.

GGPO would be better of course, but I’m being realistic. I think KOF13 will improve the netcode- they really seem to have been giving effort everywhere else, and I expect them to be rewarded for it in the arcades.

155

I knew that Sony was responsible for killing 2D games. The Playstation couldn’t even handle “Marvel Super Heroes” or “X-Men vs Street Fighter” properly, but the Saturn could. The whole “marketing to adults” thing is laughable. Nintendo has made a gazillion dollars(okay Yen) making games that are family and kid friendly.

The Playstation being an “adult console” solved a problem for the folks that lacked the spine to be seen purchasing games or a system “made for kids”. Why would you care what someone you don’t know thinks of your hobbies?

156

Play more VF. Final Showdown is rumored to come to consoles At the end of this year/early next year.

gogogogogogogogo.

157

What is an equalizer though? You could say in SF4 that’s ultras, right? Well how come the only people that land ultras on me are good players, and novices just mash the shit on wakeup, I block, then destroy 60% of their life on punish?

Things that people perceive to be equalizers, just tend to be more tools that pro level players will destroy you with anyways, in my experiences.

That isn’t to say I like Ultras, or that I like Street Fighter 4. I’m just saying, that I feel that you and even the developers, falsely work on the impression that Ultra’s give some sort of equalizing power to the new player; it doesn’t. It just gives the pro player more things to destroy people with.

Comeback mechanics don’t work. They just don’t. usually they just end up retarded and gay.

On the other side of the coin, Accent Core came out… in what, 2007? I’m pretty sure everyone accepts GGAC as a balanced, legit, difficult game. How come nobody plays this amazing game, but everyone plays Street Fighter 4? Answer, it’s easy to get into SF4. going into GG with no prior Arcsys game experience will make you feel lost and confused. Being on PS2 probably doesn’t help it very much either.

So yes, Street Fighter 4 appears super scrub friendly. So you have to ask yourself? Would you rather play SF4 or Guilty Gear? Why and why not? This is a rhetorical question, and the answer probably tells you why games these days are becoming more and more ‘dumbed down’ so to speak.

SF4 and Super isn’t all bad though. there is a legit footsie game and spacing is deliciously important, I think we can all agree on that.

158

If GGAC had come out in 2008 on the PS3- with netcode, it would have done a lot better. Netcode’s vital- as lets face it, being able to get up at 5am and play somebody is a damn fun thing to do.

Blazblue probably sold better then any GG game, and it wasn’t because it was a better fighter.

159

I don’t mind lenient wakeup windows. You’re going to eventually be getting them 100% of the time anyway. Having them be one frame is just an artificial barrier’s to entry, as Sirlin puts it. That said, it’s a bit TOO lenient in SF4.

160

how can you say that from the console that had the most 2D games at the time