That’s probably where the officially licensed turbo pads/sticks come in knowing Capcom…
I think that the different generation of characters may prove to be problematic. Like how the ST cast didn’t really have a good answer to Akuma, I wonder how many Alpha/ST characters are going to have difficulty with the 3S/IV characters, or whether the engine is so loose that it won’t even matter.
I’m bad at SFIV, but there are many people worse than me. Just today someone removed me from a lobby twice just because I beat them once. Sometimes you need a brutal game like ST to filter out the scrubs. Would you really enjoy playing ST online if you kept coming across people that had no concept of mind games or didn’t know how to execute a move or block a crossup? Those are the types of people I’m finding on SFIV. It’s funny how many people eat crossups compared to ST/HDR players.
I dunno. Someone I know put it best. Market SFIV as a game completely unrelated to SF, a totally new franchise, then make the hardcore game for the real SF players.
Anyway, would it have been much to ask for Capcom to up the difficulty in Super? I’m sure people will move with it in time and eventually everyone will improve.
You’re reading too much into my post. I like change plenty, and I like new things. I just dislike change for the sake of change. I dislike them nerfing the characters and systems over and over until the game feels sluggish and clumsy. I dislike them heavily changing the nature of characters within a specific series, like how Chun-Li has a completely different strategy in ST than she did in WW. I’m all for Alpha style Chun-Li or Third Strike style Chun-Li, but it’s just inconsistent to do that within the SF2 upgrades.
New elements can bring new strategies. Of course that’s true. A lot of the new elements in Capcom games actually limit strategy, though, as they tend to overwhelm the game: air blocking simplifies the game by weakening the commitment to jumping in; alpha/virtual combos completely take over their respective games and reduce your opponent’s options dramatically while you have meter; alpha counters have to be played around and once again reduce your opponent’s options while you have meter; parries reduce the number of viable options; and of course weakening throws and fireballs makes them less viable. I’m glad they experiment, but often their new gimmicks just end up spoiling what worked in the first place. Parries were an interesting idea, but ultimately they just made it so that you can lose the match for making the correct decision and your opponent guessing that decision.
There’s plenty of room for different games like Darkstalkers, King of Fighters, Samurai Shodown 2, or Virtua Fighter. Each of them brings something different to the table and works within its own context. However, I’m talking mostly about SF2, here. I like different and new things, but I dislike arbitrary change. The biggest problem with ST is that the new systems were poorly implemented. Super combos were just multi-hit special moves or two special moves strung together and warped the gameplay, as well as forcing an overall damage nerf. Softening throws were just a way to placate the whiners and added nothing to the game. Juggling has really arbitrary rules and lead to them adding a bunch of ill-advised new moves to the game, just to accomodate this new system. I swear, the interns designed ST.
As for newbies being able to get decent damage, yeah, that’s a good thing. I’m not very familiar with Guilty Gear, but from what I’ve seen, what I’m saying wouldn’t work within tha game. That’s fine. It’s okay for a game like that or Third Strike or King of Fighters to exist, where you need a lot of technical skill to play. The problem is that there are no options. I think SNK and Capcom have realized that fighting games partly died because it was so hard for a new player to get into them. Real Bout Special is a good example of bridging this gap. In many modern games if you have a quick free shot at someone, the difference in damage you can do is vast depending on your skill. A good player can rip 50% life off a lengthy combo, while a newbie can maybe get 5% (or 0%) damage off a throw. In SF2 you could always throw for a good 15% damage. Everyone could do it easily. It was the great equalizer. If you were the better player you’d still win because you were giving your opponent less opportunities to land that throw. That’s what it should be about, not time spent memorizing combos.
Oh, and sorry, Remy77077, it’s only on my hard drive right now. I really ought to get a web site, since I tend to write up these vast essays that nobody ever sees. Heh.
The reason this argument is terrible is obvious, isn’t it? It’s assuming absolute beginners will always face someone with skills convincingly superior to theirs, when if they knew better (in terms of “wanting to have fun”), they’d face people their own level. If I want to have fun playing billiards, I’ll have it by playing with my friends which are also horrible at it, not against an experienced pool shark
Not to mention that equalizers are no fun to begin with.
See: Mario Kart 64.
I wonder… will we ever see a ‘pure’ Street Fighter again? No meter of any kind, no system specific niches like parries or focus attacks… Just normals, specials and dizzies for damage. Just crouching, moving back and fore, blocking and jumping.
Would be interesting to say the least. I always thought that a lack of any kind of super combo meant a less flashy, less interesting, less diverse and less dangerous game… but now I know better, and I’d like to see a new attempt at the classic Street Fighter gameplay… for real, this time, not like SF4. SF4 is great but it wasn’t a ‘return’ like Capcom was saying it would be. Sure, it’s not as much a deviation as the Zero or 3 series, but still. Supers aren’t necessarily a bad thing, but it would just be fun to see something more like SF2 come back to the fore in terms of gameplay. I don’t want to see that style lost forever.
In HDR, supers aren’t nearly as prominent as they are in IV at high level play. It is much harder to hit confirm and land a super in HDR because the game isn’t combo orientated. Instead of comboing into super, things like mind games and reversals are used to land supers (using a super on a meaty attack, walk-up supers, etc.). Furthermore, because of the limited health in HDR, committing yourself to a super can spell the end for the round and a large part of the battle is to try and get your opponent to commit to a costly super. I don’t consider supers in HDR to be a true gimmick but a legitimate play mechanic because of all the interesting nuances that come into play.
In IV, I can whiff supers all day long, get punished by a long combo and still win the match. Plus, actually landing a super is ridiculously easy to do. In HDR, landing Ken’s cr.short>cr. short>Super took actual skill, but thanks to IV’s combo system and easy, mashable controls the reward of landing one is gone and is further diminished by the inclusion of ultras.
Equalizers are a necessity in Mario Kart 64. Otherwise you’d get a lead and the only way for anyone to beat you would be if you messed up. I believe Diddy Kong Racing is this way and man does it suck. If you make one mistake, you lose unless your opponent makes two.
I would love to see a basic Street Fighter game again. There’s nothing wrong with more technical games, but it’s silly that that’s all there is. I’ve dreamed of a version of Street Fighter Alpha 3 that basically uses the Champion Edition engine, with all the characters beefed up to SF2 levels. It would be interesting for sure.
Echo Black: You’re assuming people have a choice. In many situations you have to play against whoever you can find, and if there’s a skill gap, then that’s just tough. I’m not arguing for equalizers here, but rather that players who are starting out have viable options. They’ll still lose, because the better player will have better options (more damaging combos) and know what moves to use when, etc, but they’ll feel like they’re in the game and it’ll give them something to work with while they learn the game. It’ll make matches against other newbies more fun too. All this without warping the high end gameplay in the least. What’s wrong with that?
So what? A game that is consistent in awarding victory to the better player is a good game
You’re assuming all beginners are playing in order to achieve a high level, and that’s once again a pretty hopeful stretch. People that want to improve don’t need any “equalizers”, they’re not stupid and if they really want to clash against someone much better than them, they’ll focus on what they can learn, not on the words “You Lose” showing up on the screen
Didn’t you just say you weren’t arguing for equalizers? What’s this then?
Listen, I’m not asking for anything dramatic here. I’m saying that games where the only ways to create a lot of damage are lengthy combos are boring for new players. This goes for whether they’re playing against high level players, low level players, or the AI. I’m not asking for equalizers, but less of a damage gap between what a seasoned player can do and what a fairly new player can do. In a well-made fighting game, it should be about knowing what attacks to use and when. Games that are combo-oriented also tend to devolve into repeating the same combos over and over, which is boring as hell.
And no newbies are going to beat any great players just because, say, throws do 15% damage. This was the situation in SF2, and it gave new players a strong option. But a good player would still win every time, because he knew how to do much more damage in the same situation, how to avoid being thrown, how to land throws more often, etc. But the worse player will feel like he’s been part of the game and that he’s actually accomplished something if he lands a hit. In Street Fighter 2, everybody could pretty much do a jump kick foot sweep and it did good damage, but most characters had much better options too, once you learned how to do them. You see what I’m saying here?
I know this is a tournament site, but most people play for fun. That means play that doesn’t require hours in training mode and good AI and simple commands and other things that high end players don’t think is important really is important. If they can make it friendly to casual players without hurting high level play, then how is that a bad thing? Anyways, how did we even get off on this tangent? We’re a bit off the topic at hand here. This is a thing that SF2 did well.
GoldenArch: I’m not sure what you’re asking here. I found SF4 to not be very casual friendly, regardless of how it was billed… What concepts were thrown out the window? It seems to mostly have Third Strike/Capcom Fighting Jam’s engine.
My bad for not noticing it was an argument about self-serving opinions and personal preference, wouldn’t have replied pointing out common sense if I had noticed it before
It’s this really. Even the biggest SF IV haters can’t only blame Capcom that they applied it to casuals. All the genres today suffer from watered down games/ retarded stuff like paying 60$ for a rushed PC game shitty DRM 15$ for maps etc [I mean even a legendary company like Blizzard is raising the price of SC2 to 60$ + No LAN + Limited Region netplay + You need to buy three parts. [Luckily from what I’ve heard the game itself is still good though] Friends who played WoW also told me that WoW now applies to casuals and that it’s pretty much ruined]. So yeah
And now, dividing my post to parts to attract people to read this tl;dr
About Seth
I’ll admit, I lol’d when I read all those quotes. But can you really blame him? The guy can’t talk as freely as he used to 10 years ago, he’s now an employee of Capcom, he can’t say “SF IV is watered down game with some retarded shit” because he has to promote the game as part of his job. But as SweetJohnnyV said, He’s really trying and I totally have no problem with him, the opposite
And of course, he’s not the only employee of Capcom and AFAIK he’s only a part of the suggestion team and not the one actually building the game. Capcom dosen’t listen to him only, so the dumbshit added could be not his idea at all. He probably had nothing to do with programming glitches aren’t his fault either. So yeah, you can’t actually blame him like you can blame Ono/Sirlin [Heck even Ono says he can’t decide everything in the game]
**About Systems added
**Sure, it can be risky and can fuck up a game,but we need to remember 2 things
GG/VS/VF are games with many systems and they are technical, but they’re great fighting games. Mahvel and CVS2 are not considered the most balanced games ever, but theyre still great games as well, and so on with all the other great games I forgot. So multipile systems and technical don’t shit up games if they’re done right
Even HF and ST who are considered as “basic” great games are revisions of SF2 WW. They’re with new mechanics, moves and systems. Back in the day they were very technical and complex [They’re still, but you get what I’m meaning]. So the good FGs always added stuff from version to version, it’s the natural evolution of any good FG really. No one here plays SF2 WW/SF3 NG/GG1/X/FF1/AOF1/VF1/T1 etc
So, sounds good, but how can you actually add systems without fucking the game? There are a few systems who weren’t decided by this route but were great and liked, but you can’t really just take a guess…
Beta tests. Freaking important. Every FG played in high level plays totally different in at least a few aspects than the game designers wanted the game to play. Glitches undetected, tricks and combinations are being discovered by the top players and then becomes the core of the game. The company organize a few beta tests with the top players and get suggestions from people who know what they’re talking about, and find glitches. Heck, even release a demo. I have no idea why FGs barely get demos/beta tests that aren’t a part of an event…
Revisions. This is a must really. Even if betas are done, not all of the stuff can’t be found quickly, especially after the final game is released, some stuff take time to find, and sometimes they have to be fixed. Some systems can be tweaked and new stuff can be added. Therefore, a revision solves it gives the company more money, and gives the game a bigger lifetime. Don’t forget tons and tons of the “stuff we find in every fighting game” like combos, reversals, crossups etc are glitches that were made legit in the next version
**Applying To Casuals
**Companies do it wrong this days… And I have no idea why, considering that there are already things that worked great for it in the past
**Watering down controls won’t really attract casuals! **It may remove some frustration in making moves for a guy **who actually wants to learn to play. But that’s it really. When I play with my friends who aren’t really into FGs [They like them, but they don’t really learn them] they just mash, they have no idea about most of the systems, alot of the casuals in general have no idea/don’t care that there are easier controls
- Fan Service **- Yep. Do you really think Smash is popular for casual gamers because of the watered down controls? Hell no, they like it because it’s a rumble of some of the most awesome Nintendo Legends. Why do you think casuals like Marvel? [Don’t get me wrong, I’m not trying to compare Marvel to Smash lol] Because it’s theyre freaking loved characters from the comics in a FG. That’s it. SF IV and SSF IV sales from casuals pretty much came from the fact that’s it’s a freakin new SF after a 10 year hiatus at the official series, because tons of the favorite characters are back, because the graphics are awesome. Casuals bought SSF IV because it’s more ultras, even more returning characters. Millions are going to buy MvC3 because Marvel is even more popular than 10 years ago because all of the comic book movies and the internet. Everyone knows Iron Man, Spidey and Deadpool. Why the hell do you think SF3 failed at the beginning? Yeah, I’ll admit, when I was just a newb and I tested SF3. I was like "WHAT THE FUCK WHERES MY SF2 CREW OMG SO CHEAP IMITATIONS AND MIMICS AND WHY ONLY SUPER WTF [For my defense I started from MvC1 and A3 :$]. It dind’t succeed because the casuals didn’t like this whole change. New characters are important. But you can’t just wake up one day and decide that you delete one of the most known crew in gaming. And yeah, if Ryu and Ken wouldn’t be there… fuck. Only later people actually realized the game is quite good and therefore it’s popular now
Sure from the casual point of view a game like Tekken is awesome because you can get some pretty moves by mashing, but you have to remember that Tekken and SC are games from one of the most famous companies to make games for Sony, and that they were always impressive with the graphics [And again, when I play it with friends they just mash]
If Already, Learn From MshvsF/MvC1 - If after all of this the companies decide to keep their train of thought that “easy mode” = attract casuals then at least do an Easy/Manual selection, just like in those games. That way casuals can play it but it won’t hurt the high level play at all. BB learned it.
**About SF IV Series In Total
**- I don’t hate it, but I’ll admit after moving to ST/3s mainly to train in harder games I pretty much haven’t played SF IV alot [Don’t have a PS3/360 so no super either]. But I still liked it. Sure it has shenanigans but it was the best first version of a FG. Ono can say “There won’t be SF IV Turbo” but he already said it on SSF IV as well… SSF IV broke the sales Capcom expected after a week or two, and even 3s who wasen’t such of a success back then has 2 revisions. So yeah, no reason not to release another revision. What to do there?
**10 more characters? No thanks **Can be awesome but it’s totally not the most important thing, it was awesome in Super but this should’ve been back then when they promies they’ll build the game from scratch. This time, really build the game from scratch and fix the engine. No more shortcuts, auto aim attacks, retarded damage scale, only one side combos, Those darn links etc.
**Balance - **Eh, Y’know
**Ultras **- My theory on them? Capcom first came with the idea of the focus system, and FADC. Now, you had to give a cost to do FADC, and a life cost will be too dumb. But, if you have to use a super meter for it, what will you do? Another attack and that’s it? Together with the damage scale, a FADC system without ultras would’ve pretty much be used 95% less than it’s used in ultras [Just to KO pretty much or for kicks]. So you have to add something that will make the FADC worth it’s existance, And it can’t be supers - Bam, ultras!
Dhalsim, Juri and Rose’s ultras are the right direction [Inferno, and the 2nd ultras of Rose/Juri]. They actually make you think and explore the game in order to find unique setups and maximize damage. It adds variety to the characters instead of homogenize them, Capcom needs to add 3rd ultras, but this time, more in Dhalsim, Juri and Rose’s style where you get a special temp advantage/tool. It will be harder to come up with then just an ultra that you can do for massive damage, but it’s worth it, Capcom
**Find more uses **- Evolve the focus and ultras systems. Especially ultras. In the original games Rage came from[SS/CVS2], it has other uses and had no FADC system
[Unless I’m missing something here] and worked pretty much differently than in SF IV. Focus should be evolved just like Parries were in SF3.
**Cosmetic Changes
**Seriously, it’s pretty annoying that the new characters have much better models and the original rooster didn’t get any treatment
Imo, with those changes SF IV can turn to a great and solid fighting game with quite a lifetime if not a ST/3s like one
**And about HF
**I’ll admit that I only got into it because of Jeff’s vids, I pretty much play and prefer ST more [Though I can understand Jeff’s claims about the supers]. But HF actually feels different, probably because there aren’t supers and you have to KO “in a regular way”. Both of them work different really, one required more hits to KO and gives you more room for mistake [Unless you don’t use a super at all] One has more tools [Supers, more attacks] to help you in some situations you didn’t [i.e. Bison in corner]. It’s nice to play it from time to time
lol, if you really believe that in the modern FG are only memorizing combos and doing them like a mad man then you are fucking wrong, if that were the case we would see the combo video makers winning tournaments but that is no the case. the people who win tournamets are always the ones that know what to do when is right, but i guess that this is beyond you.
lo,l whatever man, if you only see combos and not what is really hapening it only shows how little you know about the fighting games that you criticize
indeed, what he is basically is saying that he lacks the brain and skill to learn combos so he wants that the games turn on boring random poking games
nah, im just trolling
but im really serious on the part that if he really believes that in modern FG’s you only need to learn combos he is really misjudging the games
oh sorry, i didn’t know retard-accessibility was a legitimate metric of success in designing a game. when i go and play tennis i think to myself “wow, who designed this shit? i should be able to serve like roger federer without any practice so i can get to the real game of tennis, the mindgames!”
good statement but this really shows how much everyone has had “character variety is inherent to game quality” driven into their head
I don’t think SSFIV is comparable to ST. It feels more like CE to me. If the speed were increased it would be like HF. Add crazy damage and tough inputs and only then would you have ST.
I can understand the SF IV claim about this that now alot of the fighters have a “Uppercut move FADC into ultra” but in general I think Ryu & Ken are a great example that it’s not a must, at least not for part of the fighters. At SF2 even at ST theyre still quite alike but play differently, It’s ok to have some who share similarities as long as theyre not the only in the cast
Speaking of that claim, this can be changed by just changing stuff with the universal systems with some of the characters [i.e. characters like Potemkin lacking air dash which is universal to the whole cast and affects his gameplay]
Wow, why are you even involved in any debate about fighting-game mechanics if you think having a super + EX moves = 3rd strike. And CFJ?!?!?!? SFIV and CFJ are both awful but the comparison ends there.
If you need explained why SFIV is a water-down SF despite FCs, Ultras, and emphasis on links, you need to post less and read more.
Also SFIV is more like the BIZARRO version of ST than a brother of ST. ST emphasizes reaction time and speed and IMO that’s what makes it fun and addicting – SFIV does not, and that’s the key difference between them I think.