Seksi harasho! Let's talk sexualization in SG here. AND HERE ONLY! >_<

Classic Fighting Games Skullgirls
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Juri’s sexuality is a part of her personality, so I don’t really object. It’s like Valentine (Only way more extreme); it’s exaggerated as a natural extension of the character.

Cammy, on the other hand, is just sexuality that doesn’t belong. Her leotard is only liked by fans because of tradition and fapping.

That’s my personal take. I think it’s fine to do a character who is over-the-top sexy if it fits the character. As a male version, I wouldn’t have a problem with Vega having a ton of sexually suggestive lines, but I certainly would have a problem if Doctor Doom began belting them out.

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Juri sounds like she should be in a porn most of the time.

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Then it would be even sexier, duh.

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(raises hand)

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Me as well. ^

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Saaaaaame

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THANK YOU.

I’ve been championing this point of view in other mediums for quite some time. Only my examples were Bayonetta and Ivy, (and then the comparison to Catwoman and Power Girl, respectively.) Now you’ve added Cammy (maybe Chun?) and Juri to my list.

I will say that, save for Filia and maybe Parasoul, the heavily sexualization in the characters does come with some sort of actual sexuality attached. Cerebella is clearly aware of her assets and at least pokes fun at it, and the same goes for MF, while Valentine clearly revels in her own sexuality, much like Bayonetta, Juri, and Catwoman.

I’m still disappointed in a lot of you for sitting there and trying to defend the idea that this game is not very deliberately sexualized. Yes, yes, we all know and are aware it’s going to be a good, hell, a GREAT fighting game, and that Ahad had a vision for his creations, but come on. You and I all know that there IS an extra, niche audience that Ahad and the aesthetic team is aiming for, and the sooner we all come to terms with that, the better.

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Haven’t read the whole thread. Really out of it, so I’ll go quickly.

  1. We should avoid acting like sexism = attacks against women. Sexism really ought to be defined as attacks against gender equality. So stuff like reinforcing male privilege or “all men only want one thing” and that sort of thing. Resisting sexism means rejecting gender roles and encouraging everyone to just act as they want while acknowledging certain biological realities (like, in this current era, men cannot birth babies).

  2. Avoid concluding that oversexualization = attacks against women. Really, we don’t know anything about the plot of SG and the characters to make any such judgement. All we really know is that the Skull Heart requires purity, which can mean goodness or it can mean single-mindedness. Until the info is given there, I’m not sure we can posit anything. For now, though, I’ll say the Skull Heart requiring one to be a good girl is sexist, because it’s rewarding a typical female archetype (virginal goody-goody) at the expense of the bad women who aren’t Mother Theresa.

  3. So if we don’t know about the characters, we have to go from the art and what we’ve seen in the gameplay. Fighting game mechanics can definitely reinforce sexism; there has never been a female Zangief-type character that I can think of, most true grappler characters that are women do it using some kind of tool, then there’s stuff like having female characters do less damage but be faster, have less health, etc. Seems to me that Skullgirls gets around all the mechanical issues there. Other than Cerebella, in that she uses a tool.

So visual aesthetics. I figure folks who think SG is sexist must feel that Bayonetta is sexist, too. Here’s my trouble; Bayonetta was sexy as a function of her powers and also in such a ridiculous way that it practically mocked itself. As far as I can tell, and again, I don’t know the characters, I’m not sure that SGs visuals will combine with the story for the same sense of self-awareness. My reading on Bayonetta could be mistaken badly, but Bayonetta’s look made a lot of sense given her personality, powers, and movement through the story; it felt very much like her powers just manifested in the most sexualized of ways and she owned that shit.

At the same time, I have to remember that she was created by men and definitely crafted for the male gaze (designer bragged on spending like 4 hours modeling her butt, after all). But then I guess the question for Bayonetta is this: is it FOR the male gaze, or with it in mind? If it’s the former, then it’s just cheesecake, and the feminist undertones were incidental to the creators (not that that really matters, death of the author, blah blah, interpretation matters more than authorial intent), if it was just with the male gaze in mind, then maybe Bayonetta was made to resist the idea that sexualized women are just sluts. After all, Bayonetta performs in a lot of ways that would typically be attributed to male gender roles, while retaining that extreme sexuality.

I bring all this up because we don’t know if SG will give this same sense of self-awareness. I think it does for some characters more than others in terms of the grotesque (in the sense of combining two unlike things) art; Painwheel and Ms. Fortune come to mind here, and Valentine as well somewhat. Unfortunately, I feel that basically all the other characters don’t have that same sense of the grotesque; Cerebella is a hot chick with a hat, Filia is a hot chick with hair (and the hair, masculine, seems to just drag her along in the supers). Painwheel works with the grotesque, but she’s not sexy/monstrous, she’s cartoon/monstrous, and so I don’t think fits the discussion of oversexualized aesthetics (although I think she is decidedly not sexist, with the whole badass throw you in a bag, stomp you out, and blow you up action hero style with my cigar shit), and Double is a blob monster that combines religious aesthetics with some Lovecraft stuff.

What I"m getting at is this; Bayonetta’s visuals felt inspired by more than just the male gaze. I’m not sure I’m getting the same sense from some of the Skullgirls characters. Does that make the whole game sexist? Fuck no, and it’s too early to make that call. But to moronically say that titties and up-skirts means sexism is prudish slut-shaming that is definitely sexist.

For what it’s worth, I consider this game one of the least sexist fighting games I can think of (joining the ranks of Darkstalkers and Arcana Heart). There’s some sexism, IMO, but there was some straight up misogyny in Ishmael Reed’s Yellow Back Radio Broke-Down, and I think that novel is incredible. We have to learn to identify and discuss the negative so things can evolve, not just broadly paint strokes and shout about shit. I don’t know that it’s even possible to create an artistic artifact that doesn’t have some element of negative oppression to it inadvertently. Save the vitriol for the assholes who make those stupid fucking hurr durr women in da kitchen where mah sammich jokes. Examine Skullgirls with a critical eye; if you find stuff sexist, ID it and discuss. If someone else does find something sexist, investigate and probe that thing.

Fucking think.

And yes, this was the quick version.

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Zeldias above me ^ Sick post, articulates my thoughts in away I would like to be able to. Although I have to say I stopped playing Bayonetta because I just found her super sexualized (does it count as sexualized if I don’t find it attractive? I’m male; do I not share the hive mind like male gaze?) personality cringe inducing.

Regarding pants shots and internet ‘white knightdom’. I feel like an aversion to underwear shots is really just another way of controlling women’s bodies; its like people feel this need to shroud the female genital area in clothes to try and remove their identity as sexual beings. (until a man takes them home and removes their clothing of course.) and I feel that ‘white knights’ who complain about tight fitting clothes are unwittingly helping to propagate the idea of women as non-sexual beings (in the public sphere.) When actually their hormones can be running amuck just as any guy’s can. Its not just a physical shroud its like a lexical shroud as well, how often are dicks referred to without a second thought? I suspect that if you called someone a vag, you’d provoke a little more response because in language just as in clothing, we try to forget that thing is there. A panty shot is no different to seeing a guy in swimwear (or a kilt as mentioned above) why do we consider it so?

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There’s a sufficient amount of “unsexy” characters in SG (Peacock, Painwheel, Double) to give people who don’t want to play skimply clothed and/or big titted gals other options. The percentage of non-sexualized females in eg SF4 is 0 (even Makoto who is very tomboyish shows off her bra), for SG it’s 25-37.5 (maybe one doesn’t count Double because she transforms into sexbombs from time to time).
Who even cares about “sexualization”? Big tits and skimpy clothing (or loli appeal, or whatever else) are only a problem if the developers made it this way to detract from shitty gameplay, collecting sales for a terribly made game by appealing to people that buy games with their penis. This is clearly not the case in SG, so who cares?

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Vulpes: “people who are interested in gender equality” care. It doesn’t have to be an explicit, cynical manipulation of potential buyers to be sexist and harmful.

Anyway, super great post by Zeldias that essentially sums up the conclusions I’ve drawn throughout my participation in this thread. Agreed on pretty much every point, including the counterintuitive “one of the* least* sexist fighting games” thing.

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Men are WAY worsely “sexualized” and shown as unrealistic idealized kings of the world than women are. What does this have to do with gender equality at all?
If there is a minority of women in a game, people bitch that women are underrepresented and that there are no female chars because the game only wants to appeal to men.
If there is a majority of women in a game, people bitch that women are overrepresented and that there are a load of female chars because the game only wants to appeal to men.

It’s retarded, that’s all it is. People just bitch for the sake of bitching.

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Women are depicted as “unrealistic idealized kings of the world”? I don’t think that really happens very much, and I’m certain people don’t complain about it if it does. They are depicted as objects of male desire, though. That happens plenty, and I think it’s worth complaining about.

Another thing people here are not complaining about is “Skullgirls having a majority of women.” Where have you seen anyone complain about that (as in, as a part of this discussion. I’ve seen some actual complaints about that but just by random commenters or people who are excited for Panzerfaust or whatever)?

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Sorry, I’m going to have to disagree with you there. Most of what men classify as “male sexualization” is actually just a male power fantasy. Take the overly muscular design of most fighting game males. Lots of guys look at that and go “hey, that’s oversexualization too!”. Sorry, but that ISN’T. That’s male power fantasy, plain and simple.

I’m not saying power fantasies are 100% bad (hey, it’s practically what makes up BATMAN, and everyone likes him!) but equating that with the sexualization of women feels dishonest IMO. For example, take all those burly, manly, shirtless men in fighting games. Total chick bait right? Wrong. Most women prefer more lean, toned men than big buff hulks you see in most comics and games.

Basically, more women want VEGA or REMY not URIEN and ZANGIEF (yes, I am aware this is a sweeping generalization, immjust using it as an example).

Now, I think one could make an argument for male GENDER roles being similarly distorted as women’s in fighting games (exaggerated gender roles are always threatening and unhealthy IMO), but sexualization? Sorry, nope.

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Only so much can be conveyed with or without clothing I guess. o_O

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That’s a whole lot of generalizations that I’m not sure I’d feel comfortable making especially since they can’t really be quantified. That is not to say that many women don’t have those preferences but to argue that the vast majority do seems hasty especially in the face of well documented cultural differences (East vs. West). Assuming we take that point of view though, I hope you realize that most fighting game males, video game males in general, err MUCH closer towards Vega and Remy than Urien and Zangief in terms of body type…

Take the “Fabio” archetype. This has been popular amongst Western females for ages and I feel still remains popular today in the midst of Twilight frenzy. Give Fabio a hair cut and put a gun/ax/sword in his hand. Is he really that different from most video game male protagonists? Design wise, not actions or personality wise, what is the difference between that werewolf character from Twilight who is played by that super buff, and I say this as a heterosexual male, hot actor and most male video game protagonists?

Anyway, one aspect of the male power fantasy (a real thing most definitely) that I don’t feel most people ever touch upon is that part of being the hero in the masculine, hetero-normative sense and why they are appealing to young men is that you get the girl(s); that includes looking sexually appealing to women. This is to say nothing about the oft intrinsic link between sexuality and power. This plays a role in why heroes tend to be very attractive (there are other reasons) but also why villians, who are always the strongest at the begging of any narrative, are more likely to be super-sexulaized (men AND women) if they aren’t outright monsters.

Anyway, my point isn’t that any gender has it worse/just as bad as any other gender or whatever but rather to point out that male sexualization does exist. The way I’ve seen some people speak, not necessarily anyone here, some people don’t think it does and that women are the sole targets. That irks me.

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Firstly, Thank you for your well written reply.

Secondly, yeah, I admit I was making some sweeping generalizations in regards to the gief/ vega thing. Sorry about that. But I still stand by my point that alot of male “sexualization” in media is actually male power fantasy, including the attractive looks like you said.

I only pointed all that out because I felt that some people saying “men are more sexualized than women” was… Inaccurate, to say the least. I do agree with you Crocodile, when you say that sexualization exists for both genders, and that is an mportant thing to keep in kind. We as a species love sex and sexy things, so we tend to depict fictional characters sexually (and sometimes over sexually). However, I feel as though the sexualization of women tends to be different than men’s. In much of media, it’s less empowering than most sexualization male characters undergo, and that’s where much of the problem lies IMO.

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Hello! First post on SRK (though I lurk here sometimes). Here’s my thoughts, yes, the game can be interpreted as sexist, but then again anything can. There is sexualization for only girl characters, but that’s because there are only girl characters. At the same time, it should be noted that women are not as responsive to visual stimuli as men (source: My psychology textbook, simply title Psychology, by David G. Meyers, 7th edition, the passage describes various surveys and expirements done in controlled enviroments.) so it might not be quite as easy as making them show skin, also women have a higher bisexual tendency than men (as in gay men are usually interested exclusively in men, straight men in women, women generally are affected by stimuli from both). Thus it could be treated as sexualization for the enjoyment of both sexes. In fact, sexualization of males could come down to bishounen facial features (which the possible character LeDuc seems to have) could be seen as a male artist’s attempt at such type of male-sexualization. Now, I’m not saying anyone wrong for saying it’s “sexist”, because it’s very debateable. I myself do not see it as such. My veiw, a common veiw in this thread, is that sexy=/=sexism, but a character who is treated as inferior to the opposite sex does end up being sexist, as does characters who are only there for sex appeal. Of course, the women in this game have personality, and are pretty cool to boot, so I don’t see it as sexist. IMO sexisim= men do everything important, women in the kitchen.

Also, I could say that the game is sexist toward men as well, they have no accsess to the skullheart for example, but that isn’t really constructive. No one has really brought up the difference in responsiveness to stimuli between men and women, adding a guy dressed in a kilt and showing kilt-panties won’t have the same effect on a woman as panty-shots do to a man. If I recall correctly, in the measurable feilds of response to visual stimuli, men tend to have 63% higher reactivity (but statistic is from my memory of the book, I don’t feel like leafing through the book). It’s not so cut and dry as add sexy male= equality achived.

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Does that one really count? since there aren’t any male characters to compare them to yet? , and certainly they would be around average health since most likelym, for a while after the release, they would be the majority of the cast.

heh. I havnn’t read through the thread yet. but after reading through the first page and nobody pointing that out, I had to. =)

Now onto the rest of the thread so I can form my own opinion. cuz I didn’t really think this was a big issue … o.o

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Hey I was just trying to preemptively troll and take this thread out of SERIOUS TIME WALL OF TEXT territory. I failed.