Samurai Shodown Sen aka Edge of Destiny

Current Fighting Games Fighting Game Discussion
121

I finally remembered which thing Sen vaguely resembled to me.
Recent 3D MK games, in weapon stance you got different attacks (direction+button) and short combos from weapon, and you could use some punches/kicks too (like Ashrah punch combo in MKD from Kriss style), then if you had a uppercut or plant-type move you could start a juggle and then follow it with some weapon combos. Chameleon in MKA is very good example of such weapon juggles. And in that weapon system we didnt get much jump game/attacks but lots of sidestepping just like in Sen. Basically make this faster, insert a universal throw and remove long-ranged/fireball moves and you will get something pretty similar.

For those who want to look at Sen movelists go here
http://sensamu.web.fc2.com/i/is/index.html

I suggest to use infoseek translation to get in meaning of japanese stuff if you need

From quick check, Ukyo’s “other” moves are

Swallow Slice (???, tsubame gaeshi) qcf+B,AB
Snowfall (???, sasame yuki) qcf+A,A,A,A,A,A,A,A,A
Rainy Sakura (??, ame ouka) qcb+B

and before them is a group with Special Step moves (???, TOKUSHU STEP KEI) with around 7 continuations (??, ???, ???, ???, ?? moves or combos, plus movement and step cancel options)

To note, Sen uses this Special Step System for part of character’ special moves. Think of it as specific stance, from which simple button presses will do special moves instead of plain attacks, and to enter the stance you either make a preinput (the “step”) or use appropriate combo, because typically part of combos lead into this stance.
For example Ukyo’s A,A,R; B,B,R; db+B,B,R; df+B,R; b+B,A,R strings all will lead to his “Joudan no Kamae” (joudan http://www.df.lth.se/cgi-bin/j-e/inline/dosearch?sDict=on&H=PS&L=J&T=���i&WC=none&FG=w&BG=b&S=26&I=on stance); which can also be accessed as step by A+R input

and his Ikari Waza is qcf+BC with no movename so far

122

Ultima:

Fatal Fury was generally quite different from SF though (especially with the Real Bout games). Garou changed that by mixing FF and SF3 mechanics but before that I would say it made more effort than SS (or KOF, even) to differentiate itself from SF.

123

SS initially was SF with swords and damage bonus instead of super, then developed own features, then both SF and own features were thrown away and in Sen only swords are left ^^. For me its like
SNK: Here’s a fighting for you, you can cast fireballs and spells in it
Player: Hey I think saw this somewhere already
SNK: Ok, you can cast fireballs and spells but also slash with sword here and there
Player: Can we say “cool” ?
SNK: And now no more unrealistic fireballs and spells, now you have sword only
Player: Goodbye originalty…hello repetitiveness

124

you know, the more high-res screens i see of it, the more it looks better to me. it could have looked better but it’s not so bad:blush:

125

I would be fine without fireballs and spells if they had taken a more creative route instead of what they did. Like, instead of removing long ranged combat from the game, put characters like Mina, more firearm users, some Billy / Chang style characters (non-projectile long ranged weapons), Galford with Poppy (he does have that in this game but is apparently pretty shit), shuriken users, etc.

That and drop that silly juggle system and keep the high damage that is a SS trademark, bring the weapon loss system back… they didn’t have to lose their personality like this.

126

It comes down to this, as a purist myself I understand some of the frustration that is being expressed presently. On the other hand, I understand that this game is not intended as a direct sequal and is essentially it’s own entity. I would hate to pay full price for a game I’ve already purshased and so I welcome this new perspective on the series. If you don’t like, go back to the classic 2D games and let the rest of us enjoy this tittle…spamming the thread of a game you don’t like seems very uncalled for IMO.

127

I don’t think people is against SS trying something new, the thing is that it didn’t really try new stuff and just copied SC and Tekken.

128

I know I’m get it regardless, if it comes to consoles it’s cause of the fact I’m a fighting game fanatic and to have just to say “I have it”

129

People are calling it SS MI ^^. But SNKP statesdthat Tenka was last 2D SS, so this makes us to face Sen as direct successor of SS series and not as side series. It looks much like some VS series, I mean part of mechanics are not from SS, and half of characters are not from SS (new ones), and same with arenas, and new boss/sub-boss.

As for spmething new, hey each next SS games introduced this “new stuff”, to name a little SS2 introduced parry, doll move, dodges and weapon breaker, SS3 new dodges, universal overhead, rage charging, air blocking, shura/rasetsu and three grades; SS4 rage explosion system and issen, S.C.S. (samurai combo system), harakiri, pursuit of laying opponent, weapon-discarding taunt, rage enhanced moves; SS64 multi-tiered arenas, stamina system, fast slashes, revamped S.C.S and more normals, SSAZ Issen Competition, different Shura/Rasetsu models, realistic damage system, new take on S.C.S, multiple rage enhanced moves per character and done like EX move versions, small jump, stumble system; Shinsho alternative stances, new types of parries, stumble/stagger system, new lifebar system, Secret Ougi in addition to Weapon Flipper; SS5 Meditation / State of Nothingness / Issen system as opposed to Rage / Rage Explosion system, depends on your character temper from which you will benefit, Kenki gauge regulates damage output; SS5sp Death Ougi as ultimate counter to State of Nothingness / Issen system; SS6 (the “Ken” spirit) new rage earning system, perfect guard system, meekly slide dodge system.

Conclusion: SS doesnt needs to wipe state clean to bring something new

130

Another possible conclusion: The changes in SS:Sen aren’t all that surprising when we see that every SS game changes pretty drastically.

Why can’t people just look at Sen as just another SS sequel change?

131

Because it was a bad change.

132

And all the previous sequel changes were good?

133

No not all the Sam Sho sequels are good but they still FELT like Sam Sho games.

134

No, which is part of the point: When they introduce a lot of new stuff all at once, the end result is fucked up. See also: SS2 -> SS3.

SST might have been the last 2D game, but that didn’t mean it had to continue into territory that was not only well trodden by another series, it also didn’t have to do such a dull job of it AND throw away all the good stuff that came from before.

SFIV, KoF:MI and even MK4 did better jobs with the transition from 2D to 3D. And none of them did it by copying another series. But actually, I could stand them copying another series if the end result was something I liked. Sen is mediocre on every single level and I have zero interest is playing it, which is sad considering SS is my second all-time favourite fighting series.

135

I also think Sen should’ve gone the route that other games series went, going 3d while maintaining its core 2d gameplay. The first KOF MI was mediocre, but the 2nd was quite good despite Falcoon’s jacked up view of fashion.

136

The more I play KOF MI Regulation A, the more I have bad words for Falcoon, lol. If Hanzo has Cicada Larva moves it doesnt means he must look like one himself…

EDIT: A thought:
Sen for SS series is same as MKDA was for MK series. Points:
-Major reset of everything (gameplay, graphic standarts)
-Lesser priority of jump/crouch axis game, more priority for sidestepping, free movement
-One was made closer to fencing simulator, other with thought to make martial arts simulator
-Because of that, both discarded great number of superhuman, unrealistic moves from previous games (no single teleport in MKDA for example)
-And also great number of normal attacks was introduced to fill the space in gameplay
-Ground combos are pre-set and limited, however player can make long juggle combos
-“Final attacks” were reduced, 1 fatality for MKDA, and 1 Ikari Waza (and no super/weapon flipper) for Sen
-Arenas are in full 3D, but not interactive. They are surrounded by invisible wall, which can change properties of juggles. No ring out in any form.
-Around half of characters are brand new
-No FMV endings, instead you get picture with text. Game only uses FMV for its intro

And now a little interview with Nagisa:

Black Shroud: Hello
Nagisa 280: Hello!
Black Shroud: Here, people argue at forums. One people say Sen is changed too much from SS to be considered SS, other say each new SS has new features. So a gameplay question: How complex is gameplay in Sen (compared to other SS games) ?
Nagisa 280: I think Sen is less complex!
Black Shroud: There is a chance SNK made this game with casual players as target auditory, so it would be easy to play and more people will buy it. And Suzuhime is one of selling points.
Nagisa 280: Sen’s good points are hidden, so not many fans can find those. Example: Sen has great SS2 stages remodelled in full 3D
Black Shroud: Yes, Sen has good graphics, arenas, music, atmosphere, artwork; but as for gameplay and storyline, its more like a franchise reset!
Nagisa 280: Right. But previous SS games werent exact gameplay replicas of each other as well. Big changes are usual for SS, and I enjoy it very much.
Black Shroud: Can Sen be viewed as side series,(as KOF: MI for KOF series), perphaps?
Nagisa 280: Sen’s story is set after SS2 events; its not a side story
Black Shroud: But not connected to Yuga story arc (SS64-SSAZ-Shinsho)
Nagisa 280: yes…
Black Shroud: There are rumors that K2 doesnt want to include characters made after they left from SS team in middle of SS4 (including all prev. 3D SS and SS5-SS6 new characters)
Nagisa 280: Dont know about that, but I think getting rid of SS6 characters is a nice decision
Black Shroud: But I miss Enja and Suija. They are more of SSAZ characters.
Nagisa 280: By time frame, Kazama brothers sealed Enja and Suija in their weapons. Can it be the reason of their absence ?
Black Shroud: I guess then we need Shura/Rasetsu system back so we can get them as Rasetsu forms of Kazuki and Sogetsu again
Nagisa 280: I think so as well. I would like to play as Rasetsu versions once more!
Black Shroud: On a side note, I saw that 2nd Player palettes of Sen characters use Rasetsu palettes, which in turn were originally 2nd Player palettes in SS2, until Shura/Rasetsu system was introduced (like Haohmaru and Kazuki in black clothes, Galford in dark clothes and gray hair, Purple Nakoruru, etc…)
Nagisa 280: Yes but its only a palette, it uses same movements and voice as original.
Black Shroud: What about tiering in Sen? Which characters are strongest?
Nagisa 280: Top Tier: Kyoshiro, Nakoruru, Haohmaru; High Tier: Takechiyo, Valter, Suzuhime, Chalrotte, Killian; Mid Tier: Jubei, Rimururu, Wan-Fu,Galford, Hanzo, Kim, Jinbei, Black Hawk, Genjuro; Low Tier: Angelica…This is based on my personal observations, I dont know about characters which I didnt included.
Black Shroud: judging from videos I saw, Ukyo (fast and long sword), Jubei (reversal Yagyu Shingan), Galford (dog projectile) and Nakoruru (long juggle combo) are strong; and also Takechiyo has good pokes and high/low game
Nagisa 280: You have nice eyes!
Black Shroud: As for weak ones, I think those are Hanzo and Black Hawk - short weapons, short slash range, no fireball, hard to get in close quarters. Even though Hanzo has grabs with great damage
Nagisa 280: Actually in Hanzo’s case, grabbing is not difficult, as you can insert his grab in place of attack in certain combos/juggles.
Black Shroud: Ah yes, I think I saw those combo functions in one of videos. What about Ikari Waza moves, have you seen any except those you told me last time?
Nagisa 280: I think not. When I will get console version of game, I will surely check movesets.
Black Shroud: That means next summer
Nagisa 280: Yes
Black Shroud: You heard that Takechiyo looks same as Musashi Miyamoto in manga Vagabond (manga is based on Eiji Yoshikawa’s novel “Musashi”) ? Basically his look copies the look of young Musashi, down to clothes color, and same weapon (bokken); this look lasts until duels with Hozoin Inshun after which Musashi is presented with samurai swords and clothes. And white headband thing, it appears in manga in chapters 33-36 if Im not mistaken, after Musashi was wounded in head.
Nagisa 280: I know Vagabond. I thought that Takechiyo is based on Musashi too, when I just saw him
Black Shroud: After all, Musashi was the one who made bokken famous, by defeating armed opponents with it, and then we get bokken-wielder in SS, so its obvious
Nagisa 280: Yeah. Sorry, I need to leave PC. Let’s talk next time!!
Black Shroud: Yeah

137

Sorry, if I’m ignorant, but who is Nagisa? I’m guessing someone who works with the game?

Anyways, thanks for the info!

138

I posted in the thread already, he is japanese and he plays all SS games, he owns SS64 and AZ arcades, and of course he goes to play Sen in japanese arcade halls. He has two accounts on youtube with lots of SS videos, some of which are pretty rare

139

So, the fact we’re merely expressing our opinion, ie. discontent with the game is considered “spamming the thread”? Despite the fact threads of this kind are meant to provoke discussion and differing views on the issue?

Wait.

Hold up.

140

Black Shroud:

Regarding Midway and MK, you’ll note, though, that after 3 games of that engine, they went straight back to a modified UMK3 engine with MKvDC, with the end result being MkvDC getting considerable praise for the gameplay, as opposed to the fluff like in MKDA or MKD (nobody praised MKA for anything IIRC). Indeed, they started backtracking on their “new direction” right after MKDA dropped. Assuming they go that far, I wouldn’t be surprised if SNK follows suit with Sen, in which case, somebody call me when they reach SS Sen 3.

Though really, the key concept to MK has always been violence - the gameplay has always been secondary - and all the PS2-era MKs retained this, so it wasn’t much of a loss compared to how much was lost with Sen.

Also, even though you already answered, I’m still going to ask: Who the fuck is Nagisa and why should I give a rat’s ass what he thinks about Samurai Shodown Sen?