Sagat Improvement Thread

I main chun in tourney and I basically agree, 900 is the right number for her in SF4.

Don’t get me wrong, for as good as she is, you haven’t seen a Chun take top three at a major for a very good reason, and that is because she has major uphill battles against the top tier. She MUST outplay top tier at a ratio of 1.5:1 or even 2:1 (sagat) to win, and that is why you don’t see chun players placing top three at any majors.

Upping her health to 1000 would lessen the ratio that she has to outplay the top tier, but so would a slight damage output boost (10% at most), or an improvement to either her U1 uuggle, or buffing EX SBK so it didn’t get stuffed for free by the whole cast. EVERY character in SF4 has a super easy jumpin that flat out STUFFS EX SBK cold, and that shit is a HUGE reason why she has to outplay her opponents. She has no real “get off me” move and no corner escape, which results in her being pushed into the corner and then subsequently operating at a major disadvantage.

But shit, that is why I love her and I wouldn’t have it any other way.

If it wasn’t for Chun Li’s stupid good backdash I wouldn’t have a problem with her having 1,000 health in the regular game. She has no real damaging combo setups outside of corner hosenka juggles that only work on some characters. Chun Li has a really half assed reversal in EX SBK that can have all kinds of shit stuff it out. I saw Josh Wong’s Guile jump on top of an EX SBK and air throw Lud’s Chun Li out of the EX SBK. It looked so bootleg with Chun Li suddenly teleporting into Guile’s arms and getting backbreaked but it worked. Chun is mad free on wake up and if she didn’t have that backdash to scoot away from non meaty/OS’d wake up pressure her low health would turn her into another Rose on wake up. Really nothing to fear at all.

Though in Super SFIV Chun Li with Ultra 2 turns into Chunfus so we’ll see what that does for her game. Respectable damage off of 2 shorts/jabs and one EX will be hella buff for Chun. Though some people will still like the punishment options (especially against fireballers) with the first Ultra so I think Chun will be one of those characters where you will definitely see both ultras made use of.

Pretty much yeah.

Her good backdash is a double edged sword though…as a chun player its VERY easy to backdash yourself right into the corner…and then once you are there, thanks to her floaty jump…there is NO WAY out except landing an untechable knockdown and then running for your goddamn life.

Again, no complaints, but that backdash can actually work in your opponent’s favor if you aren’t super super careful.

So it’s Hitbox that determine stamina? Blanka would have loved that one.

No logical reason to have more health than ryu
>> what about the fact that she doesnt have a decent anti air? She can AA decently only by using an ex, and even then itsn’t good at all. What about the fact that she cant combo to ultra outside the corner, and only for shitty damage in comparison to ryu? What about the fact that when pressured she doesnt have a non safe jumpable, invincible move that doesnt need any meter, and that can be made safe with an FADC? Or an Air tatsu to leave the corner?.. Anti air Shoryu to ultra, trade to ultra, better zoning, overall more damaging move and combo… Excuse me but you are stupid if you think that chun has better tools than ryu.

Yeah Blanka has solid health despite his speed because his combos are mostly unsafe and pretty much all do shit damage. He’s designed to be a character that focuses mostly around low damage gimmicks minus his Ultra which is his one atom bomb high damage gimmick. Unfortunately his Ultra is all but useless outside of unsafe shenanigans. It’s only solid when it’s used to finish people with low health.

Oh and in a straight comparison battle between Vanilla Ryu’s tools and Chun Li’s tools Ryu wins hands down. Chun Li may have a more effective mix up game and footsies that may work in situations where his doesn’t though on a flat out comparison Ryu wins off of like almost anything you can choose. Shoryu FADC into free high damage, normals that work in pretty much a majority of the situations that Chun Li’s work in, better AA game etc. Chun Li has a little bit of almost everything Ryu has but without quite the hard raw damage and scare factor that Ryu has. Which in the end if you want to be consistent it’s better to have easy to set up high damage that’s super safe to apply than solid pressure that requires more risk and is lower on damage output.

actually, i would agree with you with the following caveat. i play Fuerte and i have no problem that he has low stamina and takes damage like a baby due to his mobility. however, when some of the tools he is given are useless (ie: Q-Bomb or Gordita Sobat) and the damage output is generally low. the end result is a character that doesn’t have anything to compensate for the low stamina. all low stamina characters need to have all of their tools to be effective in order for them to be viable. IMO, Akuma (and viper to a lesser extent) is the only character where Capcom has succeeded in pulling this off.

People can shoot fireballs, stretch their limbs and teleport around. I respect Capcom for capturing the gritty realism of street fighting.

for the change list, it seems High Step Kick now doest 100 damage instead of 140.

The question now becomes, who does more damage - SSFIV Sagat or vanilla Guile?

In any case.

Gentlemen, have you paid attention to other characters? From the looks of it, Dictator’s U2 has the ability to punish fireballs from full screen away. Supposedly, Claw’s U1 also goes through fireballs almost anywhere but full screen away while U2 is a full screen slide attack that looks as though it will easily go under high Tiger Shots. E.Honda’s U1 may function the same as Claw’s U2 expect that it will travel full screen above low Tiger Shots. According to early reports, Blanka’s U2 punishes fireball attempts at a large distance too. Of course, Seth, Abel, Chun Li’s and Boxer’s dash U1s are old news. Keep in mind as well that some characters have also gained projectile U2s that travel full screen.

Please flame me. Call me names. Do what you have to do, but this is how I picture many of Sagat’s match ups AT THIS POINT.

Generally speaking, Sagat will have the advantage at the beginning of each round. You will zone your opponent with Tiger Shots just as you have become accustomed to do so in Street Fighter IV. Obviously, everything will do less damage now, including Tiger Shots, Tiger Uppercuts, f+HK, and perhaps even st.HK. You also take more damage. Eventually, however, your opponent will close the gap, move at mid range, and play footsies with Sagat, which is where his opponents will dominate him. Sagat may still use st.HKs, st.MKs, st.LKs, and cr.MPs to keep his ground and exchange hits. You may land a Tiger Knee, which does pathetic damage, indeed, but it is the move he needs (with cr.LK -> EX low Tiger Shot out of the picture) to send an opponent full screen away resetting his zoning game. At this moment, though, your opponent will probably have lost 50% of his/her life, meaning that the revenge meter will be at least 50% full. If you are playing against, let us say, Dictator who has selected U2, you can no longer zone as well. The Dictator player will close the gap rather easily at this point; he will move in at mid range and play footsies again whether you like it or not, and this “mid range” will ultimately result in Sagat’s downfall as his footsies are tremendously limited due to his foot speed.

The only thing that can ensure Sagat’s high mid/top tier status is the Angry Scar as that is a new addition which properties are not yet fully understood by any player. However, we need it to be effective, and by “effective” I do not mean some flashy combos that you may see in combo videos. The move has to be genuinely good, not a mere gimmick.

Oh, but we all know how Capcom love their gimmicks.

looks at Hakan

meh sagat will be mid tier

stick with him or move on

he sure as hell wont be fun anymore tho imo

Didn’t they increase Sagat’s footspeed a little?

:shake:

So the question I have is…who here is still gonna use Sagat?

Character is broken.

Tongue and cheek ‘improvement’ thread is made. Jokes are had. Coolfaces are shown. Nerds rage.

Broken character is nerfed down to a reasonable state considering his toolset.

“WAH WAH I BET VANILLA GUILE IS BETTER NOW, WAH WAH WHY’D THEY HAVE TO NERF MY CHARACTER, I MEAN WE ONLY MADE A THREAD THAT BASICALLY SAID HE COULDN’T GET MUCH BETTER.”

I mean fuck dudes, I don’t agree with their approach but I’m still laughing at the butthurt in here. Go ahead and switch to whatever fotm 3s or BS or whatever character you want, none of them will be braindead success like SFIV Sagat or Ryu.

yea totally brain dead

SBO and EVO

both won by sagats

o wait

Yeah, two tournaments.

It wasn’t like Sagat wasn’t the winning-est character in SFIV tournaments far and away, or anything! Let’s just keep mentioning these TWO tournaments, where Sagat didn’t win.

From page 3.

Honestly I think that sagat will still be top tier. He has been nerfed but most nerf are general (stamina: most high stamina have been decreased; damage: most shoto dp have been nerfed, chun ex legs, rufus ex “dp” deal less damage; ultra: it appears that almost all ultra have been nerfed damage wise. When you take all this in account, st.lk is the only real nerf, and ex scar may make up for his dp nerf.

People keep saying that EX scar makes up for the uppercut nerf, but I don’t see why. It’s more or less just another EX TU, of course it’s going to do more damage.