People forget about far standing jab…same speed as far st lk and deceptive hitbox (nearly the same range as lk and hits crouching from further than it looks like it should).
I’m curious if AS carries over to the next round.
How much recovery does AS actually have? Can you just throw it out randomly in certain situations, and then ultra if you see that your opponent pressed any kind of button?
Can you do jump in -> option select AS -> choose appropriate response if the AS comes out?
I dont know the frame rate, but you lose some frames after the animation is done.
DEFINETLY NO! SCAR DOES NOT HAVE ANY EVASION PROPERTIES.
Hey Ricky… mind if I add you on PSN? I play a decent Ken and would like to challenge your Sagat/Ken if I get the chance ^-^ thnx…
He’s not a footsie character, naturally he should get beasted a footsie range, much how like Dhalsim and Vega get beasted at point blank range. Its called weaknesses. Sagat already has great keepout tools. No reason should he have a decent footsie tool, and even then he still has some leftover in Super.
Also, LOL @ Sagat not being top 5 in vanilla without Trade > Ultra and St.Lk xx TK. Such nonsense.
Where the hell are Ryu and Gouki’s weaknesses Capcom…you know what? Not even gonna go down this road again lol.
But Ricky, why do you think only 5 players will remaing playing Sagat?I mean there are more competitive players with Vega lol.
Doesn’t bufferable close RH mostly make up for non bufferable far lk? It leads to even more shit as was seen in that video, the range on it is way bigger than it seems (or should be really) and if you don’t cancel you still get buff damage and remain mostly safe.
Finally it’s actually faster than st.lk.
don’t know about akuma but ryu losing priority on his srk is a huge nerf as that’s part of his fundamental game. It’s bad enough taking some of his strategies away and also nerfing his already average combos damage, but making his srk weaker is taking it too far.
It’s also been reported that his AA srk does 50 damage only. I would even be fine with that if they didn’t nerf his priority, now it will probably trade a lot or get beat clean.
now ryu players will have to play more offensive to compensate for this, but if we just wanted to rush down might as well pick ken.
Sagat is looking good though. He’s not as nerfed as I first thought. Probably not as powerful as sf4 sagat but definitely more fun and still top tier so it’s all good.
Ryu just needs to use MP version. Done.
Rh cancel is good when they are in your face and for combos. St.lk cancel was hella beast for space control and pushback. Two very different applications.
I’m pretty sure mp srk has the same problem otherwise it wouldn’t be that big of an issue. I’ll wait till release to confirm this though. Just a little longer and we’ll get the whole change log posted.
some corrections
1/Close hk doesnt whiff on ryu like i read there at all crouching.
2/far lk cancel wasnt “that” strong in sf4 as it wouldnt combo max range and wasnt really effective vs chars like ryu
3/cr lk st hk TU is possible , but cr lk cr lk st hk TU doesnt work , or maybe on few exceptions
4/st hk is very good as a counter hit trap , or on wakeup .
5/Trade to ultra are not gone at all , same with trade into fwd rh
so anti air trade TU, fwd RH, ultra still works?
I rest my case…
That’s true if you hit it late, but a deep anti air SRK still does 150 damage as you will get both hits. It seems they gave Ryu’s SRK more damage but balanced it out by taking away priority. IMO that’s a horrible trade off. I’d give back the 50 damage anyday to return the priority to its former state.
Not as strong as it was in ST, but still good for pressure and space control. To downplay it’s usefulness in Sagat’s game would be silly. Talking about stand short cancel of course.
I can make blanket statements too: “You sound like someone that has no idea what he is talking about!”
Seriously, If your opening statement is “you sound like someone who theory fights more than he has played the game” then you really should just stop posting altogether.
These things are emphasized for a reason. The things emphasized were the things removed. The things emphasized were the things that the developers felt made Sagat too good and needed to be removed.
Don’t assume I’m underestimating anything based on membership status. You brought that up, not me. If that’s something that weighs on your conscience, you should deal with it. Don’t try to twist your lack of self-confidence in your own ability/experience with how I perceive you.
Maybe you think so… but quite a lot of people DID… including the developers. Guess what? They made some adjustments.
It’s patronizing because you fail to see basic logic.
Here is some more logic for you. Sagat’s power is the sum of all his parts. If the sum of Sagat’s power is 10, let’s say his parts are 3, 4, 2, 1. If you remove 2 and 3, Sagat’s sum is now 5. If you add a 4, Sagat’s sum is now 9. Very close to 10… but not quite there. That added 4 is greater than each of the two removed numbers individually, but not quite as strong as both of them combined.
Sagat was a powerhouse because of the sum of his parts… not any specific part by itself. Each part, in conjunction with each other, is what made Sagat so good. LK cancel, trade/ultra, high stun, high overall damage, kara f+LK, jump MP, high-damage FADC ultra, TK pressure… and numerous other great tools. If Sagat had just one of them, he wouldn’t be good. With all of them, he was ridiculous. Capcom has purposely nerfed a couple of the things so Sagat can still be played similarly while requiring a bit more skill and technique.
So you are agreeing with me, and then in the next sentence you are saying I make no sense. Interesting. Also, you can play word games all day, but the fact of the matter is, lk cancel and trade/ultra as we know it in SF4, are no longer in the game. Yes, you CAN cancel stand LK (close hit). Yes, you CAN trade ultra in some cases… but the point is, it does not work the same.
I’m glad you think that adding “I think I know more about SF4 Sagat then you TBH” somehow adds any validity to your statement. BTW, it doesn’t.
I challenge you to name a first-edition SF that is as balanced as SF4. Sure, it is absolutely not equally balanced, but the amount of characters that are competitive is pretty solid compared to every other first-edition SF ever released. WW, SSF2, A1, SF3, CVS1 (Capcom engine, Capcom designed). Not a single one of these games is even remotely close to the balance in SF4. It is common knowledge that SF4 is Capcom’s best first-attempt ever. In fact, name ANY first edition of a highly competitive fighting game that has a considerable scene, that is as close. HF is considered one of the most balanced SF’s ever, and it is a THIRD edition… and that doesn’t even count all the arcade revisions that WW and CE went through first.
As for Gen and Rose, who cares? Capcom never said they wanted to make the game 100% equal. They simply wanted to compress the tiers. Simply making Sagat/Akuma/Ryu slightly weaker already compresses the tiers a bit. Making sure Gen/Rose don’t fall below the competitiveness of the worst character in SF4 also keeps that goal alive. It doesn’t matter if they go from 5th worst to 4th worse. If the worst character is still as effective (or even more so with new tweaks) than they were in SF4, then the tiers are compressed. Mission accomplished.
Semantics. Again, YOU don’t understand that a system change has been made so that all of the variants of trade/ultra are no longer the same. Yes, you can still trade/ultra in some cases, but it is clearly the same. In that regard, his old tool is gone.
You really don’t understand logic. There are multiple working parts here. First of all, if c.MP TK, st.LP TK were as good or better in SF4, you would see them used as much or more often than f.LK TK. But they aren’t, and they weren’t. Because he lost his best option, now players will have to use options that are “almost as good”. Almost as good is another way to say “not as good”. Stand LK cancel allowed Sagat to poke/pressure/punish. He lost one of his major (only) real footsie tool. Sagat built meter through his zoning, you are correct, and stand LK cancel was a tool in that. Putting opponents in relatively safe pressure strings, pushing them out of range so he could go back to zoning with FBs and stand HKs, these were mostly done with stand LK cancel.
So, now Sagat has lost that tool… meaning he has less effective footsies, less effective pressure strings, and getting into the proper zoning range is a bit harder. Why? All because of the change to far LK cancel. There is more to the LK change than what it appears. It has a resonating effect on how Sagat will be played. The developers new this, and this is why they made that change instead of changing something else.
Also, I never alluded to Sagat being meter starved all the time. Simply that it will happen more often. Think about this logically. With all of the examples mentioned above, it’s going to be a bit harder to get into the proper zoning range. He won’t have the same types of pressure strings. He won’t be able to play footsies quite as well. ALL of these things helped Sagat build meter. These are major reasons why Sagat had an abundance of meter. Now, with those gone, and the fact that he has to USE more meter to get similar damage, he’s going to get meter-starved more often than before. Nowhere do I say it’s going to be all the time, but it’s common logic. No one has full meter all the time. Everyone runs out of it once in a while. The fact that Sagat cannot build it as fast, and the fact that he has to USE it to get similar damage means hes going to have less, and go through it faster. Thus, it will be more common to see him run out. That’s it.
See, this is where you solidify your inexperience. I never brought up my “position”. I never discredited you because you aren’t a premium member, or an admin, or an 01’er. I’m simply pointing out where you are wrong, and how you fail to see that there are more to changes than just what you see on the surface.
… also, you can use the “you write too much” approach all you want, but the fact is, I put in real work here. I don’t just say “I think I know more than you”. I put it out there and explain why.
… and it’s good that he has that. It wasn’t about saying all the new stuff he has. It was that even though he got new things, they were not to make him BETTER than SF4, it was to make him remain a top-level competitive character because the main things they tweaked took him out of serious contention.
Close HK cancel is great for damage, but in terms of effectiveness, it’s nowhere near what far stand LK cancel is. Definitely good for him though. Solid damaging option instead of just c.MK + DP. Plus, with Scar cancels, hes’ going to have some nice variety.
The damage off stand LK cancel wasn’t what the thing that made it so good. It was how versatile it was, what it led into, and how it allowed Sagat to poke/zone/pressure while gaining meter in close. Every blocked frame-trap was more meter. Now he lost some (not all) of that effectiveness and requires meter usage for close to SF4 damage. He still has great tools.
You are absolutely right. He has some insane potential now with Scar, but you have to take the good with the bad. Because he lost such a simple little cancel, his footsie range game is changed, and this changes the frequency of how often he can go from 1-char distance to point blank. If people aren’t scared of pushing Sagat away at 1-char distance because he can no longer LK -> FB/EX, then he’s going to be pushed away more often.
Again, I agree with you. The development goal, as stated many times, was to compress the tiers. Not make everyone exactly equal. There’s nothing wrong with top char remaining top char. What matters is the difference between not only him and the top 5, but him and the entire case. If he is slightly less effective against the rest of the cast, but still better than everyone else, the game is just that much closer to being “balanced” (in as loose a term as can be applied here).
Without the threat of being punished/interrupted/zoned/pressured (fib, ex, tk) at 1-char distance, and without the ability to 50% (or more) off any potential trade, Sagat loses quite a bit of his threatening presence at certain ranges. It becomes MUCH safer to throw out normals to stuff him and keep him more on defense. Part of the reason he was so ruthless was that he could stay on offense so easily in many cases while building meter because of those 2 threats. Obviously he had more tools… but the two that made him super scary were removed for a reason. Take a look at Sagat vs Akuma, Ryu, Rufus, Balrog, and some of the other characters close to top. Watch how many times stand LK is used as either a pushback (combined with FB or EX), or pressure starter (with TK). It’s a ripple effect that changes how he plays. It’s easy to say it wasn’t that big of a deal until it’s gone.
Actually, you didn’t rest anything. You didn’t fully read what was said… but you tried to play it off as some kind of support for your argument anyway.
*2/far lk cancel wasnt “that” strong in sf4 as it wouldnt combo max range and wasnt really effective vs chars like ryu *
As mentioned, it was strong against chars that weren’t in the top. That tool is one of the things that expanded the tiers (moving Sagat away from the majority of the cast… not the top 4 or 5)… and by removing it, it allowed the LOWER tier characters a better chance to compete. Stand LK cancel against some of the lower tiers was just a show stopper. It wasn’t so bad against the top because they had ways around it… other characters did not. Hence, why it was removed… to allow more characters to compete.
5/Trade to ultra are not gone at all , same with trade into fwd rh
We’ve know that a variation of trade ultra has been in since the very first location test. It just doesn’t work entirely the same way. Not like this hasn’t already been said about 5 times by now.
Has anybody here tried to AA with Ken’s LP shoryu? It has probably the lowest priority among all DPs… It’s either trade or get stuffed; you will rarely see a clean beat with Ken’s LP shoryu. Plus it trades with Balrog’s meaty cr.jab. From what I’ve heard and seen on the SSFIV videos Ryu’s DPs got nerfed down to Ken’s LP shoryu level, but I could be wrong though. We will have to see the final version to be sure
But if that’s all true Ryu will not be as strong as he is in vanilla SFIV, especially on his defensive game
Yeah I heard this too… no more brain dead lp shoryuken to ultra i think…