Sagat, a shoto?

Just a hypothetical question and discussion.
I started this chat on the SRKlive channel, and left before a conclusion was made, if it was ever reached.

So i ask you the Sagat board, do you consider The King a shoto?

Points for him being a shoto were fireball and a DP, however he lacks a tatsu.

Points against him being a shoto were the lack of tatsu, and it being replaced by tiger knee. The low variation on the fireball.

Involved in the argument was also whether or not Dan Hibiki would also be considered a shoto due to the Dan kicks not being a tatsu?

So if anyone wants to contribute points for the argument I’m just curious as how others see him, even though in the end it doesn’t really matter.

Shotos without tatsu’s

He doesn’t have a 3 frame uppercut, nor their mobility. He is not a shoto


No 3 frame DP, no shoto lol

The God of Muay Thai is most definitely not a shoto.

fireball + uppercut = shoto

no personal offense to you intended: it’s been that simple for 20 years!

this label is really of trivial importance anyway. experienced players will be handling each of their matchups against the various “shotos” differently anyway. you’re not going to fight akuma the same the way you fight ryu.

Thats why its just hypothetical. I wanted to see what others felt.

And the 3F uppercut was never even mentioned, but that is something to consider. And i should probably say how i feel since i made the topic lol. Myself I don’t feel he is a shoto just because he feels so different from the others that are considered shotos.

no sagat isn’t a shoto, yes there is deviance in the way you play ryu, ken, akuma and dan in various games but generally there is a basic foundation that applies to all of those characters that makes it much easier to pick another one of those chars up in comparison to going from ryu to the king. that’s the same reason why i don’t consider sakura a shoto either.

when it comes down to it, it really doesn’t matter though haha

shoto = shotokan karate
sagat = muay thai
technically he’s not a shoto although sagat doesnt really adhere to muay thai other than a few normals/tk

can he be a shoto without a chainable normal?
what about an air tatsu equivalent?
what about a shoto walk speed?

if you can be a shoto without those things, then can you be a shoto with all these minus a fireball? Find a concise criteria for the term and decide if he fits in that criteria. Because if it is simply fireball+uppercut, then would seth be a shoto? or even guile by a loose definition of “fireball” and “uppercut?”

My opinion: hell no he is not a shoto. He doesn’t look like one, play like one, or have any normals that resemble anyone else on the cast, let alone a shoto. He is Sagat and always will be the king of muay thai.

Pretty much. Shoto is just a short name of shotokan.

Sagat plays somewhat like a shoto (fireball, uppercut, some kick dumbass kick attack) but he uses Muay Thai. Maybe we should call it Muayto like a shoto

Now I have the image in my head of sagat performing a tatsu shouting ‘Tiger!’

so is seth a shoto… or is he a guilru or a simu…

Plz don’t mix gay shotokan karate with the king’s tiger style muay thai kick boxing.

Tiger eats double dragons.

he’s allthekinds! :angel:

Muay Thai is not Karate, and Sagat is not a shoto
For example, Makoto is a shoto even she doesn’t have fireball and dp. Shoto has nothing to do with fireball+ dp, it is the abb of Japanese Karate.

Sagat is not a shoto. He doesn’t share their normals, their BnB’s, he doesn’t have their OS game or safe jump set-ups. He is an off shoot of that mold but specialized to be amazing at one thing, solid at a few others and poor in the rest.

Makoto’s style of karate is Rindoukan, not Shotokan, she’s not a shoto in any way :stuck_out_tongue:

Sagat is a fireball character, but not a shoto.

Anyway, the “shoto” label is a bit vague anyway. If we go by their “style”, Ryu, Ken and Akuma are definitely shotos. They have hadouken, tatsu, dp, similar normals: jabs, c.strong, c.forward, c.fierce, even the sweeps; Dan might count as one, Sakura so-and-so, and Gouken is the least shotoish despite being the master of the school (I don’t think the style originally even has a name, shotokan is just something that was made up)

Shoto is short for shotokan karate. It’s not just fireballs and dragon punches, it’s the normals, the movement, the stance, hell, even the outfit.

As a Muay Thai practitioner myself, there is nothing karate about Sagat at all except maybe his st. HK (typically roundhouse kicks in Muay Thai spin through, much like his F+HK). Even still, the way Sagat turns his hip over when he kicks isn’t karate at all.

Outside of the TU and SRK being similar, there is really no similarity between Sagat and Ryu/Ken.

The term usually refers to Japanese Karate in SF, as theres no Rindoukan Karate in real life. Capcom doesn’t name Ryu, Ken, Akuma arts as Karate either, they call it something like “assassinating art”.