Saberwulf Shadow Eclipse - broken?

Overall I think they’ve done a pretty good job balancing the game with this one exception. I hate to say it as I love this game so much… but this move is about as broken as they come and in the hands of a good player just becomes stupid. It’s got the biggest hitbox I think I’ve ever seen… 360 degrees and MASSIVE. Seriously - check out the hitbox in practice mode for it… you will laugh! ZERO startup frames - none whatsoever!! Oh - and is 100% invulnerable to everything. It also does a whopping 20% damage on its own when pretty much every other shadow move does around 10%.

If you want to have some fun… Sabersulf’s dash forward - which by the way also has invulnerability frames, goes through people and is easily the best forward dash in the game when combined this move provides a GUARANTEED hit.

If you are crouch blocking like normal then Saberwulf dashes through you and starts the Shadow Eclipse… you are getting hit. You can’t even switch which direction you are blocking! When Saberwulf gets a knockdown and starts dashing back and forth on wakeup things just get stupid.

The best move to compare this to would be Sadira’s Shadow Recluse… because supposedly they serve the same type of purpose… however hers only hits in front of her - a simple crossup attack will cause it to whiff (heck in the corner it doesn’t even need to crossup) has a 4 frame startup… which means you can easily just hit a jab or use ANY meaty move to completely stuff it… and only does 10% damage.

This move needs to be nerfed fast. It’s just too stupid. Give it a 2 frame startup at least and reduce the size of its humongous hitbox! It will still be a crazy good move. If I’m crouching and you dash to the other side of me I should at least be able to switch which directions I’m blocking - it shouldn’t be this guaranteed nonsense. With how fast meter is gained in this game in a typical match with a decent Saberwulf player you always lose at LEAST 1 full life bar to this move every game.

http://youtu.be/8FyKpPBjSeE

Firstly this should be in the Sabrewulf thread…

Maybe YOU lose one life bar to this move, but that doesn’t speak for everyone else. You’re basically just throwing your own struggles with the move into a generalization of everyone’s issue with the move.

This reminds me of similar complaining that people had with Rufus’ EX Messiah when SFIV was first released. Rushdown character with not the best footsie or long ranged tools but had strong reversal and mix up game to make up for it. Sabrewulf is designed similarly in that aspect.

Let’s get this out of the way. **Shadow Eclipse is NOT 0 frame start up. ** You read the frame data wrong. It works like a Marvel super. **** It technically has 6 frames of start up and starts on the 6th frame after the screen freezes. **** It’s 0 frame after the freeze which is the same as some supers that are in Marvel 3. If you just do Shadow Eclipse in someone’s there’s 6 frames that goes by first where you are just stuck. Your inputs are locked out and you can’t block (the invincibility doesn’t kick in yet either). It’s only after that does the invincibility and 0 frame part kick in.

So basically you’re getting crossed up by something that takes 6 frames to come out after he dashes which means your blocking game is poor more than anything. Shadow Eclipse is still very negative on block and has significant recovery on whiff. As a Glacius player I can throw out hail before it starts up and it usually can hit him before he lands all of the hits of the eclipse.

Besides…this game is being developed by people that have consistently placed at majors and Evo in games with arguably more broken stuff than what’s in this game. You’re going to have to learn to ADAPT like people did back when because it’s very likely they aren’t going to patch and nerf everyone down to nothing every 2 months like the majority of fighting games already out.

Are you stoned? It’s got nothing to do with my blocking and it certainly isn’t just ME who is complaining. It’s the entire fighting game community here in Guadalajara. This is not something that I am having major problems with - it’s something about 20 people down here are having MAJOR problems with. Go into practice mode… record Sabrewulf dashing through you then immediately doing Shadow Eclipse. Now switch back to your main character and try blocking. You have to switch the way you are blocking before the dash even happens. If my inputs are locked out for the first 6 frames then it might as well be a 0 frame startup… I don’t have this problem so much versus online Sabrewulf’s because none of them abuse it as much. People don’t realize just how ridiculous it is.

I’d rather say “people haven’t spent enough time on the training mode figuring it out”.

I’m a Sabrewulf mainer for now and I agree with you Shadow Eclipse is a VERY good move, great hitbox, great invincibility (the only invincible move Sabrewulf has, by the way), 0 frame startup (yes, zero, it starts hitting right after the startup Shadow animation, so it effectively has a 0 frame startup). However, the maximum damage you can get of a Shadow Eclipse juggle combo, without an Instinct Cancel, is 32% using two Shadow Meter bars, and using one Shadow Meter bar you get no more than 21% I think. I usually only use the Throw, whiff c.HK, Dash, Shadow Eclipse setup to end matches, because I don’t want to spend my Shadow Meter in a Shadow Eclipse juggle combo, Shadow Meter is just too valuable for that. Also Shadow Eclipse is very punishable on block.

The real deal here is if you have 2 bars of Shadow Meter you can do two consecutive setups for 38% total very easy damage (not counting again Instinct Cancels, which is even more damage), and that starts being too much overpowered BUT only against people that didn’t have seen the setup before and/or didn’t spend time in the training mode figuring out a way out of the setup.

There’s a relatively easy way to block the Throw, whiff c.HK, Dash, Shadow Eclipse setup on wakeup. Keep blocking forward after the Hard Knockdown, and keep blocking forward until you are fully recovered of your wakeup animation, and then start blocking backwards, do a backdash, or whatever you feel is better to do. This will prevent the Throw, whiff c.HK, Dash, Shadow Eclipse setup to work, because you were already blocking forward when he did the Dash and crossed you, and then make sure you punish as hard as you can. What if the other guy does the setup after a blocked normal/special and catches you already blocking backwards? Well, if you block a move and think this setup is coming, make sure you are not static, use an invincible move of your own or simply use your jumps to get off the situation.

You asked if Shadow Eclipse is broken. I think I’ve proven you it is certainly NOT broken, it’s just a VERY good move, no need to change anything. About the Throw, whiff c.HK, Dash, Shadow Eclipse setup, it takes just a little study and game knowledge to block it, just like many other setups in many fighting games.

Despite all these maybe the game needs patches in time, but I would NOT touch the balance of the game at least after EVO 2014. Game needs to grow up as it is, right now is a 2 weeks baby, and people is still figuring out things, like this one.

I also request a moderator to please move this thread to the Sabrewulf subforum, thanks in advance.

It locks you out AFTER the 6 frames go by, not before. I’ve already looked at this shit in training mode and you can hit Sabrewulf 6 frames before it activates after he inputs the motion for the reversal. It’s not like it leads to a shit ton of damage any ways. Nobody says Doom’s chair level 3 in Marvel is 0 frame start up even though it activates 2 frames faster than Sabrewulf’s Shadow Eclipse. It’s 4 frame start up then it locks you out at 0 after the freeze. Nobody calls it the 0 frame start up super even though it’s faster.

I find it really hard to believe that you’d have to switch your inputs before you dash considering he can’t cancel his dash during the active or recovery frames IIRC any ways. If it’s only your people in Guadalajara that are complaining, then the move should be fine.

Of course you have to do it before the Shadow Eclipse start. Just do Throw, whiff c.HK, Dash, Shadow Eclipse with Sabrewulf against any character of the game (works universal) and after the Throw just block as you would normally. I discovered the setup shortly after I noticed Shadow Eclipse had 0 frame startup.

If you do it frame perfect, there’s only one way out, the way I posted before in Saberwulf Shadow Eclipse - broken?

For doing two consecutive setups, after the first Shadow Eclipse, whiff c.LP, Dash Forward, Shadow Eclipse will work if the opponent did a fast wakeup recovery, if not, whiff c.LP, whiff c.HK, Dash Forward, Shadow Eclipse

Regardless, it’s not 0 frame start up. It’s basically a misnomer to call the special move 0 frame start up.

Ok, in the attack info it says is 6+0 frames startup. 6 during the Shadow startup animation, and 0 after it. But because during the Shadow startup animation the game freezes, we can assume the move has virtually 0 frame startup, right? Proof of it is the setup I wrote here, if it were 6+1 instead 6+0 you would be able to block it normally.

There are supers in Marvel with similar frame properties, yet no one calls them zero frame. I think the only thing I can think of that was legit zero frame was throws in the old SF2 games and I think supposedly Yun’s normals become one or zero frame in Genei Jin in 3S.

I’m practicing blocking that set up you described now and it’s not very difficult to block if you are looking for it. After you play Marvel 3, this is pretty easy to block in comparison. You can just look for Sabrewulf’s dash and then the game gives you 6 frames after he recovers from the dash and inputs the eclipse to block it.

He has to do it as soon as he recovers from his dash so you can also just reversal trade out of the mix up. Like with Glacius I can just do reversal shadow puddle punch. He either trades with the puddle punch and both characters take about the same hit stun, damage and reset, or he trades with shadow cold shoulder and the same thing happens. As long as you do that you only take like 1 percent damage and basically are near neutral vs. him again.

It’s really not more difficult to block than Wesker doing a raw teleport into press buttons. You also take faaarr less damage if you get hit. Just like Marvel, if you have an invincible reversal you can just input it on frame one of wake up to deal with it (specifically trade for minimal damage in KI). Just like in Marvel, it’s simply a 50/50 so you have an equal chance of guessing right as you do guessing wrong. If you guess right free shadow counter or other punish.

It’s gimmicky yes. Amazingly good…no.

You can basically be touching the ground during what looks like a safe jump while holding back when the move starts up and still get hit because like Vaarp said - the whole game freezes during those 6 frames of startup which essentially makes it a 0 frame startup. Vaarp - if my buddy did that setup with HK for it then it would definitely be easier to see coming however the problem is after knockdown he dashes back and forth from side to side at least 4 or 5 times making it extremely difficult for most characters to even input their reversal. (Not that I even have one being Sadira.) Saberwulf of course doesn’t have that problem since you can cross him up all day long after you knock him down and the input is still down-up.

A Shadow Eclipse on its own + the second jab eclipse in a 1 meter version does 22% damage.

A typical knock down goes something like… dash dash dash dash -> throw
dash dash dash dash dash - Shadow Eclipse
dash dash dash dash -> throw
dash dash dash dash dash - Shadow Eclipse
dash dash dash dash -> throw/overhead/low/normal mixup

You just lost over 50% life in unbreakable combos and he’s still got another (much more reasonable since he’s out of meter) mixup incoming. Kick his ass for a bit now that he’s out of meter… but you have to deal with it all over again in the few seconds it takes for him to get the meter back. This generally speaking happens at least twice a match meaning you lose 1 full lifebar to this every game on average if not more.

Just having 1 meter stocked also makes it incredibly difficult to try to mix him up. In particular as a Sadira player where generally speaking you’re trying to jump in and use the air to your advantage. Setup a great double cross up mixup with Sadira? Saberwulf doesn’t care. He hits 360 degrees and will hit you even if you’re trying to jump away the hitbox is so huge.

I forgot to mention this but forcing you to guess between throw at Shadow Eclipse adds yet another layer to the problem. Shadow Eclipse > throw tech > you blocked the wrong way because of my 0 frame startup
So you need to both 100% guess regarding which side he’s going to end up on AND you have to 100% guess that he’s going to throw out Shadow Eclipse versus a throw. Hit any button at all and it’s 22% life. For fun he can even throw in a regular mixup instead of a throw/shadow eclipse as the simple threat of a shadow eclipse paralyzes you and makes other mixups more effective without using the meter.

^ I was in that situation multiple times. It’s basically a guess.

Of those options you listed the first one only does 10 percent damage at most and puts you on the ground. Might as well just take the throw.

Second is basically if you block it right, Sabrewulf is dead.

3rd is just take the throw

4th is block right Sabrewulf is dead.

Fifth is what Sabrewulf should be doing.

Shadow Eclipse gimmicks will be cute for a while, but the move is terribly unsafe on block and because it’s only a 50/50 that you have to BURN METER for it’s not worth it in the long run. If I was a Sabrewulf player I would not be doing Shadow Eclipse all day on wake up burning meters. If they block it unless you instinct cancel you’re taking a fat ass combo.

Since a topic on Shadow Moves is already open, I’ll post it here.
Breakdown Video: Shadow Moves during combos
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bW3A-QmCBtE

Considering he is my main I must say even though the hit box is massive It’s really only best as an anti air and finisher and it still must be used effectively.

I believe you that this move is good, and that you are having trouble with it. But I think you are acting in a very shortsighted manner. Work hard on dealing with that move and let’s check again how things go in a few months from now.

I want to emphasize with you guys that I don’t have problems at all dealing with this move online. Very few Saberwulf’s understand this move’s potential. My buddy is the only person who uses it to its full potential. In the hands of a player in the know things get… well… yeah.

this move is mad