lol…all those srk fadc to ultras would give him 250-327 damage instead of 425-500 damage…he would of lost a lot more with ken
Why do people bitch about things in games when they can simply stop playing and find something better to do? I mean, you must have some other way to spend your time besides whining, right?
@redrapper
You have the same link posted five times. Emphasis? If so, nvm. Just pointing that out. >_>
To Redrapper:
I’m not sure what are you trying to prove here with all these tourney results…I never said Ryu is an OP character…I just said if Daigo & Jusin didn’t play high tier characters, they would not be having the success they’ve had now…no disrespect to them… they fully maximize their character’s potential and they deserve the result they get… but that IS what it takes… which is to pick those characters with least weakness, bad match-ups, tons of options and setups…
No shit that player skill is important but it is not EVERYTHING…you’ll only go as far as your character’s abilities takes you…you got to be lucky or hope your opponent messes up…cuz you will need more openings to beat the opponent who just needs that one opening to do that 50% damage combo on you…
facepalm
Obviously if he played Ken he wouldn’t play him like Ryu, no? They’re different characters, he would play them differently.
Shut the fuck up. Go look at SBO results and then come back here and cry about tiers. Stop bitching and moaning, if you choose a weak character, that’s your problem. No one’s forcing you to play mid-low tier, if you don’t like the game, don’t play it, it’s that fucking simple. Plenty of people get decent results with unpopular characters. Just because an El Fuerte player isn’t the best in the world doesn’t mean there’s no good Fuerte players out there.
This is exactly the type of attitude people like Valle and Wong are trying to avoid. You don’t get “lucky” that your opponent does something. You read your opponent. You get in their head.
“They jump when I throw a Sonic Boom.” So the next time you throw one, Be ready to C.hp.
“When I walk mid screen, they low forward.”-- You bait them. You walk mid screen, and then back away right out of their forward range, and if they forward, you sweep. If they don’t. you move on.
Everybody has a pattern. Every opponent has tendencies. Once again.
(Emphasis, I know.)
Valle is telling you what you’re doing wrong, and why you’re wrong. This attitude will lead to more loss if you keep it that way.
And Ryu’s Ultra at base does less than his super… no to mention while his Ultra is great and all-- the majority of matches Daigo won against Justin at Evo-- he never even needed to use the ultra. He beat him with footsies and zoning. Most of the time, I don’t even need to use my ultra when I win. It’s all Zoning and distance. I control space better than my opponent, and he loses. A lot of it is with fireballs. If my fireball gets shut down, things immediately get harder for me, as spamming low forward only gets you so far, against opponents who can predict and counter you.
And Ken has better footsies than Ryu. c.mk stuffs Ryu’s clean, and his SRK gets the job done. I’ve been toying around with Ken(not maining him.),and I can already beat most of the shit you guys have trouble with. =/ come on. Step it up!
You’re dumb.
Calm down, spaz. I guess you were hoping that that meandering sea of Strawman fallacies and other irrelevance you just invented in your own head would distract away from the fact that you didn’t refute anything I actually posted. Instead of constantly name-dropping and launching into random attempts at SF history lessons that nobody asked for and most people are already well aware of, you could try actually reading, listening to what other people are saying for once. Your current posting habits makes you come off as an odd combination of pretentious and achingly desperate for approval. Not a good look.
In any case, during your furious rant you managed to further strengthen my point about many pro players and the characters they use. Rufus is a strong character in SF4, but not against Ryu. So yes, Wong counterpicked Rog. This prompts you to go on a tirade about how Rog has always been a counterpick for Ryu. Correct…and? Where did I claim otherwise? More importantly, what does it have to do with Wong picking Rog against Ryu in SF4? Nothing! Obviously what characters fared well against each other in previous games has little to do with their matchup in this game, which you pointed out regarding Vega. So why bring it up like its something to write a wall of text about? Just another excuse for you to launch into a rant about who you’ve played and spam the same pointless video link 6 more times, like it contains any info relevant to the discussion. Pathetic.
The very fact that Wong felt the need to counterpick in the first place further reinforces that at least some onus is on the character used. Daigo uses Ryu in every SF game…except 3S once he realized early on how strong Ken was. Sanford uses Cammy. And Akuma. Except when he loses to a kid that plays online with Gouken, then he counterpicks Sagat. These are obviously great players, but that doesn’t mean they don’t counterpick, use top tier purposely, etc. to give themselves an extra advantage. You want to deny that, you’re worshiping too hard.
Yeah you can stuff EX Tatsu with a jab if you can react perfectly in 7 frames. Do it right and your reward is 30 damage. Split second off and you eat 200 damage + whatever else. It’s a very strong move in comparison to others in the game. No one said its invincible or impossible to predict, just that its a lot better than most other characters’ similar options. That’s a running theme with SF4 Ryu.
All those bnb combos ending with a HK tatsu or a DP would do 350-400 for the cost of one meter if he used Ken. It equals out. Close HK into EX SRK alone does 350 damage. Ken definitely has damage output options.
Most Ken players’ problem is that they try to play Ken like he’s Ryu.
hah, well kens bnb is risky…you can end up eating a combo, ryu is much safer,everyone has options to have high damage, thats is not the point, its how easy it is to DEAL the damage
how should we play ken then since you know so much…obviously not a zoner, rush down? hardly
You made yourself look stupid twice already, go back to the smash brothers forums.
Reading opponent? You mean making a guess as to what they’ll do next… no body can read their opponent 100% of the time…not even Daigo…so reading = Guessing …which is essentially luck or…taking risk…
Anyways…you have the link to the rest of the video?? I am interested in what Valle has to say…
What the hell is the point of responding to you if, like the child you are, you pretty much make a TL:DR quote of me and begin to misinterpret bits and pieces of what I said.
And my point in NO WAY strengthens yours, the hell are you talking about? It’s a counter pick. He also used Abel-- who’s nowhere near top tier, because Abel shuts down Ryu’s Fireball game as well. Ed Ma picked Zangief as a Counter pick for Rufus-- even though the character is lower tiered.
If you can react perfectly in 7 frames to something you see that’s coming? That’s not hard.
And don’t give me this “You’re worshiping top players bullshit.” I’ve met them. You’re the one speculating. I’ve talked with Daigo, talked with Wong, talked with Tatsu, and more than you’ve probably even gotten a chance to see in person. This is from them. They’re the ones who told me you pick who suits you best. And not by tiers. What reason do they have to lie to me?
And I’m pathetic? You’re on SRK, the competitive Street Fighter Focal point, and your base experience is online. You’ve never entered a tournament, and you’re arguing with someone who has more experience and plays with the best.
Yes, In what way is “What you’re saying in this topic about Ryu is wrong. Here’s why?” have anything to do with the topic… Hmm?
I’ll say it again, in big bold letters…
WHAT YOU ARE COMPLAINING ABOUT IS NOT OVERPOWERED. IT’S EASY TO DEAL WITH, AND EASY TO COUNTERACT.
You’re relying on strict Data, while I’m talking from experience.
Also, you’re also rewarded with a reset after you stuff the tatsu, which you can use to set up a guessing game. If Ryu SRK’s, and you block-- he’s at a disadvantage.
Once again… and this is relevant…
EVEN COMPARED TO THE REST OF THE GAME-- THE SHIT YOU’RE TALKING ABOUT IS NOT OVERPOWERED.
The move properties, hitbox, And everything of EX tatsu is not only easy to avoid, but it’s just laughable you complain about it.
As for approval, I don’t fucking need anyone’s. If I wanted it, I would’ve been a little bitch and just nodded my head when you acted all high and mighty. If you want to basically strip SF down to “Ryu can’t do shit besides Hadoken, Shoryuken, and Tatsu” Good shit. You’re an idiot. And honestly? Your only posts have been in the SSF4 forum for the most part. What I’m addressing is the fact that the last time I argued with you, one of your big defenses against me was to go ahead and say “Hey, I’ve played old SF games too and so on…” And tried to come across like you had much more experience and all that. You don’t. You have no idea what you’re talking about.
Oh, and that link pretty much directly addresses this specific topic. He also happens to address your posts. If you don’t want to read it. Fine by me. You’re loss. But I’m not going to have to face you at a tournament. Probably ever. And that’s not off topic.
I’m saying you really have no stake in this, or experience, or idea what your talking about because you’re relying on numbers while I’m relying on results and experience. I posted Results dude. Take a second and read my other posts. There’s normally only one Ryu in top 8 at almost every major so cal tourney, if any at all.
IF what you’re saying was so overpowered, and people were playing Ryu just because he’s top Tier, wouldn’t they be just abusing EX TATSU and Mashing DP’s all day? They don’t. And if you want to strip it down to a move that does good damage and really isn’t essential to Ryu’s game-- well then let’s go with Ken’s ex Tatsu as well. But then again, it is essential to Ryu’s game because it breaks armor, and pushes his opponent away from him, makes the normal Tatsu essentially safe(which it isn’t). What about dictator? His EX Head stomp should be nerfed too in that case. He doesn’t really need it for his game, and it’s a pretty safe trade.
This is Street Fighter. The human element is a big deal. If you don’t believe that, you’re not going to get far.
Every move has a strength and a weakness… nothing is invincible in this game. If that was the case then Ryu would have been winning every tournament. Instead he’s just kicking your ass online.
Luck is when you’re opponent whiffs a shoryuken from across the screen trying to do a Hadoken, or when he misses a guaranteed ultra link. Skill is when you bait them to sweep, focus dash in and get a combo off. Knowing what kind of a player your opponent is and the matchups dictate how you play. If I know my opponent is looking for an EX green hand, And I’m in the disadvantageous position… it’s up to me to realize what they’re waiting for me to do… and bait them into doing it.
Example: If a Ryu SRK FADC’s and dashes forward… and I’ve blocked. HE can do either:
- SRK
- LP combo
- Throw
- Backdash.
I can either
- Backdash
- Throw Tech.
- Block, if Know an SRK is coming.
- Reversal(if I have one that can beat SRK. Cannon Spike, EX Ken SRK, Akuma SRK, Tiger uppercut, Gouken’s counter etc.)
I’ve done a few Psychic SRK’s this round, and I know my opponent is looking for me to SRK again. He’ baiting me into it, So I think he’s going to block. I’m making an educated guess. So I throw.
If I want to play it safe, I could just back dash.
Get my drift? The Video explains everything.
EDIT:
WHY THIS IS ON TOPIC?
I’m arguing the validity of your statement’s regarding Ryu’s balance with the argument that the advantages you are stating are not distinct enough to warrant removal, as they are fallable in their conception and predictable without proper use.
I am also arguing that Tier placement is secondary to player skill in the sense that thoughtful play leads to more progressive results rather than textbook play.
You should write novels. You seem to have invented an entire person w/ backstory and everything to argue against because you can’t come up with anything to respond to what I actually write. I’m not misinterpreting anything…pretty hard to do that when all you write is playground insults and rebuttals to points I never made. I didn’t tl;dr your post. I read it. And watched your link. Which is how I’m able to tell you how irrelevant they are to anything I said. I didn’t come in here on some “please I don’t get footies, I lose to Ryu’s online what do I do?” so why are you responding like I did? You’re so emotional about this whole thing and so quick to fall back on your “Ive met pros so I can pretend to be an authority online” reflex that you’re unable to have a normal discussion. When well-known players comment on a move being really good, do you immediately jump on them and start shouting all the ways to possibly beat it and how they’re idiots? I’m guessing no. I doubt you do it to people you’ve never met in a face to face setting either, so do yourself a favor and take it down a notch. If you’re unable to do that, trying to continue discussion is pointless.
How you’re not seeing the point of the counterpicking discussion is beyond me (I suspect you’re just denying the obvious as another diversion into insults and insecurity-ridden comments.) Scenario: Deciding who to main? Why not choose one of the stronger characters in the game? Done. But uh oh, the opponent is using a character that will make the fight more difficult. Time to switch to a different character that will make this match-up easier. Hence, Abel and Rog for Ryu, Gief for Rufus. Sagat for Gouken. The fact that they counterpick in the first place shows you that they know the significance of matchups and character strength. Why is this so difficult for you?
And no, you can’t react to something and counter in 7 frames unless you are expecting it when it happens, which means your opponent is playing predictably. And none of that changes the fact that it’s still low risk/high reward for the Ryu player throwing it out and high risk/low reward for the opponent. Again, Im not saying that the move makes Ryu OP, and any good Ryu player will usually combo into it rather than throw it out anyway. My only point was that, again, in context, its another really good move for a character full of really good moves. Show me all the other characters’ options that do similar damage/stun and are safe on block. There aren’t many. Now instead of just acknowledging this fact (Ryu is good, its ok to admit), your instinct is to not only deny it, but personally attack me again. Something’s wrong with that picture, don’t you think?
You a daigo weaboo rider like 90% of this community is? :shake: Lol look at the info thread… ppl talking about 3s quotes and stupid stuff :sad:
I don’t want to use braindead characters and i stay away from them… some how people flock to them. Ryu isn’t hard to pickup and use… he has no weaknesses and no bad matchups… what if every character had that braindead ryu syndrome? Don’t get me started on the trade ultra crap :shy:
Meanwhile back where the idiots aren’t arguing…
A character is easy to use if you win regardless of skill level. Obviously thats not the case. Ryu should be slightly nerfed and his trade ultra taken away same with Sagat. That would be all I could think of.
^^ This isn’t original. And once again, it’s another reason I’m personally attacking you. Correct me if I’m wrong… but your point was as such:
*“Ryu has the best tools in the game, and is an head and shoulders above every other character, on basis alone. He’s easier to pick and play than any other character and he’s easier to master than any other character. He has an SRK which in this specific game engine is a HUGE advantage, and his ultra is very easy to link. Playing him is almost braindead easy and it’s much harder to play most other characters in the roster. HE has no weaknesses, and needs a major nerf.”
*
^^ IF this isn’t your opinion, spell it out more clearly. Because posts like this:
Are what’s giving me that Idea. And is my major complaint.
And as such my comment to you then was:
*“I disagree. I believe he is balanced. He has an even match up with almost every character and his gameplay is all fundamentals. Everything character has a way to deal with every single one of his tools(which I listed as c.Strong, Fireball, c.mk, SRK, EX TATSU and SRK FADC.) This therefore, does NOT put him HEAD AND SHOULDERS above the rest of the cast, as all of them-- save for maybe guile, have ways to deal with all of Ryu’s major tools. I also stated that these tools, in the context of each game, have been better if not more viable in other games in respects to their engines-- and that in SF4 characters have more ways to deal with Ryu than many of them have ever had in any SF game ever. So while he may be good, I don’t think that he’s as such ‘easy mode’ to play.”
*
Now you’re argument for that was
“Ryu has more tools than any other character in this game.”
Which I disagree with and state that
"For most matchups his only reliable tools are his Fireball, his SRK, his low forward, his crouching strong, and his focus."
Those five tools have multiple uses-- and using them for different situations(ex. Low forward as a defensive poke, low forward as an offensive bait), takes just as much skill and effort as does using another character’s tools and assets.
Let me put this more into context for you. You DON’T play Ryu. You have never played in the competitive scene. The results I posted show Ryu doesn’t dominate every major tournament out there.
- Explain to me how the fuck, someone who doesn’t have experience in top level competitive play can casually just go ahead and say that Ryu in top competitive play is easier than the rest of the cast merely by looking at frame data when he doesn’t even play the fucking character.*
And then call Ryu Main’s clueless when we say "It’s difficult at the higher levels."
See: http://www.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=210333&p=8159007&viewfull=1#post8159007
The reason I also bring up older games, is because multiple times:
http://www.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=210333&p=8120848&viewfull=1#post8120848
http://www.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=210333&p=8133160&viewfull=1#post8133160
http://www.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=210333&p=8162997&viewfull=1#post8162997
You talk about how the game “should” be, many times in reference to past iterations and or points.
you also say:
But You haven’t played any past games competitively, and thats why I’m calling you on it. And if you have, then most of what your saying is just misinformed or in itself clueless. Particularly this statement:
I didn’t respond when I saw it, but that statement is completely wrong. I’m not going to go into details but: 3s Ryu, 2i Ryu, XvSF Ryu, A3 Ryu, HF Ryu, HDR Ryu and for many match ups-- ST Ryu. All of those characters have been compatible with, if not fundamentally played with a rush down style. 3s, 2i, and A3 ryu are usually preferred to be played as rush down characters. And with the exception of 3s, they outperform Ken in every game I’ve listed. Oh… I forgot CvS1 ryu.
If you want me to stop bringing up the past, stop saying “this is the way it’s supposed to be”… because it’s not. It never has been. The only case where that’s relevant at this point is with Guile, who has really never shined in the offensive spotlight, and by trying to give him an offensive flash kick, they screwed him. So therefore, that is why we are bringing up past games because you in your past posts have stated about how things should be. However, you have no reference as to why they should be and in a few instances you reference previous games, in which the mechanics you are talking about aren’t present ala Ryu never being a rush down character-- ken ALWAYS having a better SRK(In story purposes yes. In gameplay purposes, Ken’s SRK does more Damage, Ryu’s usually has higher priority as an anti air and a counter reversal.)
Now if I’ve misinterperated what you’ve said… then quote me and let me know. If not, then at least have the fucking decency to **Read my God damn post before responding. **
Is it wrong to assume that in a more balanced game that Ryu should be straight up mid tier with mostly 50-50s?
I just don’t get how people can ask for the removal of SRK-FADC-ultra when you have someone like Rufus with 12+ ultra setups.
Why don’t you ask for the removal of something meaningful such as c.mk that can go under half the jump ins and specials in the game. How about the ridiculously easy and numerous links? Or the immense speed with which he can gain super bar.
No. But that’s pretty much what he is. He’s a character with mostly 50/50’s. He’s the bottom of top tier currently. Rufus an Balrog rank higher.