This thread is so awesome
I would say I agree, if not for the fact that ur using meter in exchange for safety. if FADC was punishable, then whats the point in spending 50%? After all, that’s one of it’s fundamental uses. As for juggles, I mean, what do you expect them to do? how do u expect ultra’s to be connected? they’re not bufferable, and most of the chars, if not all, set up their ultras with juggles. what did u want, hitconfirm>ultra’s? it would break the game(hit confirm super>>crossup hitconfirm ultra much?) . and dnt tell me u wanna play the guessing game with a move that has absurd startup and recovery for most characters, or that ultra should only be done on dizzy’s/crumples. it would render ultra practically useless. If not useless, very situational, which is kin to useless
At this point most ultra’s are done with some kinda juggle move, dictator’s air to air, boxer’s headbutt, gouken’s back throw,vipers seismic shit>sjc, rufus’ target combo, etc etc. mind u, those are characters that DONT need FADC’s in theyre setups, or need to burn meter at all in that regard.
That depends who you’re using. Learning matchups with Dhalsim takes far longer than learning them with Ryu, since his moveset is so much simpler.
Yea, for the harder characters in the game, i can easily see it taking a year to perfect what you’ve learned, or even to consider all situations long enough so that you can truly master a matchup.
fair enough, that said, learning a moveset doesnt take more than a month i would say. took me bout a week n a half to learn ryu’s. now, learning attributes, and what moves wrk best in x matchup, that took me bout 3 or so months. to be fair tho, i havent learned all matchups, but thats mainly cuz i stopped playin before i got alot of experience from some the characters i didnt run into often. regardless tho, i learned quite more than enuff. Now if we wanna speak relatively, for argument’s sake say i did pick up sim. it would prolly take 2 to 3 weeks to learn how to implement combos consistently enough so that it becomes second nature, and the matchups, movesets, attributes would take me about the same time it tuk for me to learn ryu’s. learning characters should differ in speed. learning matchups, not so much. Once you learn how to use something, finding different ways of using it shouldnt be so hard, at least that’s how i see it. sim has more things to rely on than ryu, honestly, so i think i’d learn matchups faster personally.
Agreed. That’s what I find most problematic about it, the principle.
Been there, done that. You tend to get responses that completely misquote what you say, make some ridiculous assumption, accuse you of being “spoiled”, or a “tier whore”, or that you don’t know what you’re talking about. Plus, I don’t open that can of worms until I’ve already exchanged with a person a number of times and they’re not even trying to take the discussion into consideration. At that point I just skip to drawing conclusions.
All due respect, have you read the OP of this thread? It was a big mess well before I got here, to say nothing of when I lost patience.
I can see where you’re coming from, but 50% meter isn’t something to scoff at, not is it cheap just to make something safe. Comboing off it currently takes an opponent’s simple mistake, a trade or an FADC. If they fix the trade problem, then They’ll have to spend 50%-75% meter just to follow up with one attack (Sagat gets two).
Plus, removing the ability to juggle or FADC off AA moves would make the game much less dynamic. AA’s giving juggle states isn’t anything new, and is some character’s only real juggle game at all. Sandbagging a universal system (FADC) to screw over one type of move isn’t something I can agree with, and isn’t really a guaranteed way to tighten the gaps between tiers as much as it is just a way to switch the tiers up. FADC is already a pretty restricted ability as it is, as far as spending meter to cancel goes. Adding further restriction on the one of the only systems that are unique to SFIV compared to the rest of the series isn’t an appealing idea to me.
On top of that, AAs aren’t really invincible at all in this game. They’re good, no doubt. But they only have invincibility on startup, and the first few active frames. Also, your punish opportunity on it is either blocking it when they have no meter, or making it whiff. Again, 50% meter is a decent cost that prevents anyone from abusing it, as you generally can only afford to pay it once or twice a round, and only if you’ve both:
- Been attacking or taking damage
and
- Been conserving your meter
Wouldn’t simply correcting the annoyances that make them easier to abuse (mashing, autocorrect) be a much better solution, as opposed to stripping character’s abilities and limiting player’s options?
Also depends on how you train, and with who. If you play regularly, the only reason you can’t learn all a character’s matchups is if you don’t get the opportunity to fight good players of certain characters.
Especially when you consider all the resources available to people. Like this site right here.
Ryu has plenty other moves he can combo an ultra from, besides a DP. More than most I would imagine.
I’m not opposed to “very situational” either.
Perhaps? It’s just that not all characters even have the options you speak of in the first place. I think it gives him too much ability, and the rest of the non-DP guys have to work too hard (in comparison) to deal with it.
I’m just against trade to followups, I’m not against it when you beaten a move clean with an AA and then juggle from it, because you used meter to do it.
Trade allows you the same sort of setups as a CLEAN AA hit with FADC, only difference is you either don’t need to burn meter or you burn 1 less stock of meter than you normally would which is dumb.
Ryu builds meter like a champ. Easy blockstrings followed by fireball, a great fireball that zones at the same time, on the fly SRK to control the air. The only two people who beat Ryu at building meter is Sagat and Dhalsim.
^ make DPs totally invincible, removing the possibility of trade?
If they also removed the ability to FADC a DP I would have no problems with that at all. 
Cammy can build meter at a decent rate too with TKCS.
That sounds like a great trade
It sounds horrible actually. That’s why there are EX-Attacks, to improve the normal versions, aka making SRK fully invincible. Just get rid of trades > ultra. Problem solved.
Sure, Ryu builds meter well. But not so well that burning all your meter on a blocked SRK FADC isn’t still a disadvantageous position. For him to use fireballs and blockstrings to juice for meter also requires his opponent to be very defensive, anyway.
Agreed entirely.
You could use the EX to give other benefits, like added range, quicker startup, or simply more damage.
The thing is, you can’t really get rid of trades > utra without drastically changing the way the ultra juggles in the first place. You’d had to get rid of trades completely, or make the ultra not juggle at all. I dunno, maybe make Ryu get knocked down if he trades?
he does, i named some b4, and the only one that doesnt use meter is AA lp srk. aside from that and SRK fadc>ultra all his others pretty much require u to either have a bigass/fucked up hitbox or to be in the corner. like i sed, practically useless/situational. and still, doesnt change the fact that they’re all juggles
as far as not being opposed to situational, each his own, but i mean, shit, if you want that play 3rd strike or sumthin o wait…
as far as ryu building meter, just cuz u build meter well doesnt mean you should burn thru it. I mean, i do, cuz im rushdown, but that doesnt mean its effective. I’m sure you wouldn’t spend that 50% on throwin out a random FADC>srk if you knew it wouldnt hit(I would loool double FADC mindgames) im sure you’d sit on dat shit n use it for some ex fb lockdown or sum otha shit. being gud at building meter isnt really an excuse for using it. burning meter always leaves you at something of a disadvantage, no matter how fast u build. cuz if you burn thru 3 bars and ur opponent has 2 stocked, it’s risky biz for u, not so much for him
Honestly the best i see happening with that is that they’ll either increase invincibility, like u sed, or not change it at all. I doubt they would be even capable of maying ryu fall on srk trade without making him fall from a regular jumpin. unless they can somehow make it so that if srk or sumthin is interrupted on the ground that he falls, but i would imagine that would be ridiculous, i mean, that kinda gives ppl free oki. imagine it happens no matter what, even if he’s fully airborne that he would fall on the ground, free wakeup options, off a simple crossup, instead of him flippin back the way he does…breakin the game, im tellin u…
Perhaps put him in the air after his 6 I. frames, and make it so that the air recovery is too long to followup with Ultra?
You forgot j.mp.
I wouldn’t consider the rest of his setups to be “practically useless” either. But again, just my opinion, as I think Ryu already has more than enough tools and would do just fine without his amazing DP stuff.
He would. Gat wouldn’t. Cammy wouldn’t. U1 Rog wouldn’t. Ken would probably be screwed out of his U2 setups for decent damage. Dan’s U2 would probably end up useless.
Just make it so there’s NO trade like previous SF games, either you beat the jump-in attempt cleanly or if you mistime it you eat a jump-in combo, the juggles can stay if the risk means eating a jump-in rather than a trade to ultra in your favor from a mistimed SRK.