Hey guys, sorry if it seems like I’m spamming, but I haven’t heard if this has been figured out yet.
Rose can combo HP reflect to Soul throw (HP Soul throw as far as I’ve tested) without burning any meter.
The trick is (kind of a make-or-break) that you have to use reflect as an anti-air, and the other character has to be above Rose’s head. What makes this function better than it sounds, is that it works consistently once you get the timing right, no matter if it’s a forward or neutral jump.
I’ve tested on Juri, Fuerte, Rufus, Hakan, and T. Hawk so far, and it works on all of them. I even countered T. Hawk’s condor dive done from his jump apex with HP reflect (put it out slightly before he reached me, the same as a fireball) then combo’d to ST.
It seems HP reflect has 2 hitboxes: one for the ground, one for the air. And the air version, though kind of intimidating to perform at the moment, can be practiced to perfection. Now that I know this, I’m going to actually start to try replacing the revered c.HP with HP reflect. :china: 210 damage + free + works consistently. Get on it. Scarf 'em down!
Interesting. I’ll give this a try in the lab. Thanks for the heads up, I always thought it’d be interesting to integrate the Reflects more, especially HP Reflect since I’ve gotten it to stuff a few things before by accident.
I tested that a while ago as well. But the window is tight and considering T. Hawk can delay condor dive, I rather just block then punish or watch him jump then soul throw him.
But since you brought up the topic of midscreen hp reflect into soul throw. Against El Fuerte when he’s knocked down you can do meaty cl. mk xx hp reflect and if he ex runs on wake up and does splash or propeller, depending on the time of the attack, the hp reflect will hit him up and you can soul throw with out using meter. I hope this makes sense to everyone. This should probably be in the match up section
I don’t think I’m gonna do it, but I know it works, I just thought it was because I was doing Soul Satellite and a regular HP reflect came out and then I just combo’d into soul throw.
Doesn’t seem too easy though, and cr. hp seems more consistent.
yeah I did some testing against some characters with dive attacks, and let’s just say it wouldn’t be wise to try on Juri or Adon. Juri’s dive can get beaten by normal soul throw anyway though.
Haven’t tested Cammy yet. Don’t think it’d work against her considering the range she usually uses it at.
Been pretty solid against some optimal normal jump attacks such as Balrog j.HK, and Sagat j.MP. Just as good against Rufus’ high dive kicks to cross-over. And seriously, Balrog FLIES when he gets hit. Like he’s super jumping… :lol:
c.HP is still a good anti-air, but I’m liking the prospect of greater damage output with slightly more execution. It’s really no less consistent, just needs practiced.
In the past, and currently, I’ve run into many people who use preemptive jump attacks as a means to prevent soul throw, or to counter me jumping, and considering soul throw itself hasn’t shown to be a great anti-air anyway, I usually punish them with c.HP.
However, now that I know of this free juggle, there’s no reason to not punish them more severely for leaving themselves wide open.
Theory fighter right now; Rose vs Ryu should be dead even because of this. This is now so much more a no-jump match. Considering what Ryu can gain from DPs is now pretty even compared to a Rose who has just as good reactions.
The most recent Japanese tier list says it’s in Rose’s favor 6-4, but I don’t see how. I’m drawing the line that it’s definitely 5-5.
EDIT: Thanks Sylar for the added hitboxes to emphasize why we should be using HP reflect instead of c.HP, when the opportunity is given.
I wish the hit box on rose’s FA was close to what her Hp.Reflect hitbox is that would really help her FA out. Also somebody was asking about cr.lp,cr.lp,cr.lk,cr.mpxxlk SSpiral connecting without meter you can get it to work on most ppl if the opponent is crouching.(I know its still inconsistent on guile though)
Reflect AA sounds like a really interesting idea, I’ll have to try. I have a feeling thought it will lead to me eating huge jump in combos like crazy. You’d have to be waiting and read the jump really early and commit, so I think things like tatsu crossups will beat it, not to mention just any decent jump in. I guess as long as you trade, its in your favor?
I still see her head vulnerable in that reflect frame, where do you see her head being not hittable?
I always thought this was at least 5.5 in Rose’s favor imo because she wins the footsie battle. Ryu’s best range is also Rose’s, and s.mk stuffs his best poke (c.mk). You can also slide under fireballs at this range, since the hit stun will delay your recovery a bit(IIRC) and allows you to slide under it clean. If he sweeps from anywhere inside max sweep distance, c.mp can punish him. He needs to sweep you, dp your limbs, or hit you with a EX fireball to get really anything started…and even then you still have Satelitte to fall back on to get you off him. Just don’t rush him down on wakeup.
This represents the physical space that the character is occupying. These do not represent hittable boxes. It is there
so the characters, when both are pressing forward, they cannot pass through eachother. Moves that can pass through
the opponent, for example, akuma’s teleport, that yellow area wil lcompletely disappear so he can pass through the opponents
yellow area.
Green lined boxes:
This represents the character’s vulnerable hitbox. If any attack’s solid red hitbox or projectile’s solid green hitbox
collides with the green lined box, a hit will be registered.
I’m really not sure about using hp reflect as aa. I guess the damage is really high ( 210 + down) so that somewhat compensate the huge risk ( 12 start up frame is huge !, it mean u1 could have be used ! )
I don’t see how HP reflect is a huge risk like against all characters. If anything, be cautious against those who can hit you from behind, or change the speed in which they land on you. And you’re right that U1 could be used instead, but who cares about that ultra when reflect + soul throw does almost half its damage?
And it’s not like we’ll never use c.HP. It’ll remain a good move to fall back on.
If we can still get a ST during a trade, then it might be a pretty good idea, especially against those people who have floaty jumps like Chun, Bison, Sim, etc. If not, it could be pretty risky…we need to test that first.
My concern is only about the 12 start up frame. Most of the time, that mean giving a counter hit to the opponent. My reference to u1 was only to show how rare this situation append. Against a very bad jump, yeah that work. but it not like it append all the time.
Already tested it, just didn’t report it. Totally works on trade.
Yeah if you mistime your reflect, you’ll totally eat a counter-hit + combo you could’ve otherwise blocked or c.HP’d. But the risk vs reward is good enough to practice to consistency so you minimize the risk that much more.
