Like I said, if there are mechanics/modes/anything that removes this, then it creates a trade-off. It does a lot more than promote memorization, it serves as a foundation for potential new mechanics. On top of that, starting with invisible cooldowns sparks discussion. It may be less than 24 hours before they become visible due to feedback… or they may never become visible due to new elements being added to the game. It’s technical alpha. Not even basic alpha, let alone beta or release. It’s a foundation. A start.
Unless there is a spectator mode that shows all information all of the time.
Incorrect; there is no trade-off in this case. The correct play is still to memorize all of the cooldown times and pick the mode that doesn’t show your opponent’s cooldowns. You’ll still have every single bit of the information that you would if you did see the cooldowns (after all, you saw when they did the move, and you know how long the cooldown is, so you know exactly when they can do it again), and you won’t be gimping yourself with an -ism that doesn’t provide a true advantage.
That’s not true at all because you have no idea how said elements interact. If there was a mode that had all of the mechanics of all modes and included visible cooldowns, would that not be the correct way? That would be terrible balancing, of course, but the point is, if they did had a mechanic or a mode that showed cooldowns, it doesn’t mean it’s automatically “worse” than anything else. It’s all about what it leverages, and what are the risk/rewards.
Another way to look at it is what new opportunities it provides to the game. Because we have super meters, we have characters like Morrgian that have an assist that grants additional meter. We could have characters that drain the opponents meter. We have mechanics like burst which can grant full meter under condition A, and no meter under condition B.
Sight-unseen (or played, by the majority), cooldowns only seem to provide a negative to the opponent but this is only at the initial first-pass foundation level. As I mentioned above, they provide additional potential because it is a new mechanic to be harnessed. Maybe it ends up great, maybe it doesn’t, but again, the potential is there.
I can’t see the dealer’s bottom card in Blackjack. I can’t see my opponent’s hand in Poker unless I force it with a mechanic of the game. I have to put money on the line to see the ultimate outcome.
It’s different. Let’s see how it plays out for the majority of people. So far, it has created some very interesting gameplay scenarios for me.
This is a bad analogy, and it cuts right to the core of why hidden cooldowns are bad.
In Poker, or Blackjack, you can’t see the hole cards ever (well, unless the game goes to showdown). In Rising Thunder, you can see when an opponent does a move. Thus, the correct analogy isn’t “I can’t see my opponent’s hand in Poker unless I force it with a mechanic of the game.” The correct analogy would be a poker variant where the hole cards are initially dealt face-up, and then turned over by the players once everyone has had a chance to see them – everyone knows what everyone’s hand is, and the turning cards face down once everyone has seen them is utterly pointless and adds nothing good to the game.
The correct response, at this point, is simply to give the game a try and see for yourself. The discussion has gone too far into “this is why it’s bad” instead of “hrm, could be interesting, could be bad, but one way I could see it being good is X, or maybe even Y”. The knee-jerk reaction to something drastically different to the norm is status quo these days. Not much anyone can do until everyone is on the same page, in the same environment, with similar experiences.
Arguing about analogies is going to go another layer deep into something that doesn’t benefit the thread.
With no published system requirements, it’s very unlikely that I’ll get the chance to (my ancient PC has a GeForce GTX 285 video card, which I strongly doubt will be enough for this game.)
Don’t cooldowns on special moves amount to extra recovery frames? Whether you can see them or not won’t make a difference in the long run since we adjust to those naturally through gameplay. They could be hidden for a simple a reasons as “it didn’t feel right” to “your piloting your mech and your opponent can’t look at your cockpit.”
All in all it definitely forces you to pay attention to the rhythm of characters as opposed to trying to keep track on a bunch of timers.
They sort of act like this, except you can move during the “recovery” frames. It’s like, OK, I can fire this huge missile but after I do, it takes Xtime to fire it again, but I can still shoot my machinegun. Sort-of.
I’m pretty sure “cooldowns” in this context is being used as in the MMO/MOBA sense of the term – “time after using a move before you can using that move again”, not “time until you can act again”, which is what more recovery frames would be.
Meh, you guys will find out tomorrow. If hearthstone was about to implode my computer and I can’t run LoL, don’t even wanna know what this would do to it.
To me cooldowns are like a reverse charge move. Instead of having to hold down before you can initiate your flashkick you are holding down after the flashkick. And instead of being forced to crouch you can perform any action lol.
Why are people having so much trouble understanding cooldowns or thinking they don’t make sense in a FG context? such a natural continuation on things that have been in these games forever.
hmm gee it’s almost like you have to manage resources? that is totally a unique concept that’s never, ever been in fighting games before! /sarcasm
you used your DP as a combo ender, k great. now your opponent knows he can jump at you or run riskier pressure while your DP is on cooldown. he opens you up, well you done goofed … maybe you should have done a different combo or gone for a reset instead? you mismanaged your resources and were unable to escape the situation that ensued as a result. that happens ALL THE TIME in SF (no meter for FADC), Marvel (no meter for safe DHC), GG (no burst), games with alpha counters, etc …
I could have done without two extra meters on top of the per-special cooldowns but ah well
You don’t even understand my argument from a basic level. Why should I need to manage basic special moves as a resource? Yes, in this situation ending a combo with a DP is a bad idea because then you lose that tool, but that is precisely my point. Losing that tool is nonsense, especially when it’s a basic tool my character needs to function. It is in no way comparable to an FADC or a super, it is a basic primary tool that my character is designed around and should be using often, yet I am not allowed to use it too much for no reason other than an arbitrary design. Even if your comparison to supers made sense, you are never limited to the number of uses of your special move, just the frequency of which you use it, which also makes that a faulty comparison. You’re not being punished for mismanaging a resource, you’re being punished for possibly wanting to do optimal damage or wanting to anti air or wanting to do basic things your character should be doing. I have yet to hear a compelling reason why that is a positive thing for the competitive meta of the game.
Because thats how this game is made and they are exploring design space? You still have normals which do everything else. Not having a dp doesnt mean you cant anti air.
This isnt the first time this has happened. Art of Fighting had meter that was used for special moves. Psychic Force also had meter for moves which would regenerate; some moves used more than others so they effectively had cooldowns.
But that’s operating under the idea that the character needs that tool to function. In other games where there are no cooldowns, sure, that’s a fair assumption or even observation, but don’t you think that if you were designing a fighting game to have cooldowns, you would make sure the those moves aren’t required to function… but instead supplement their abilities and/or combos?
Nowhere does it say special moves are basic. It says they are “special”. They are “special moves”. You can’t use supers in a game until you fill a meter… was that not arbitrary design when it was released? It’s common now, but initially it was a foreign concept. “I can earn the right to use this one really powerful version of a special move if I hit a lot or if I get hit a lot”. How is that any different (in regards to new concepts) than “We want to give you really powerful special moves but make sure you really put thought on when and how you use them”?
You haven’t heard a compelling reason because you don’t think the reasons given are compelling to you. Plenty of reasons have been given. Just because a character has a DP doesn’t mean they don’t have a c.H or stand M, etc. You may decide to save your DP for a combo opportunity because it gives more damage than simply using it to anti-air. Instead, you opt for c.H or stand M which is always available. Perhaps you use DP as an anti-air but the opponent changed their trajectory or baited you, now they know they can jump from X range, or crossup because your c.H or stand M won’t hit where the DP would have. Perhaps you block and get a combo opportunity, but you can’t maximize damage because your DP is on CD.
Cooldowns force you to play differently. In addition, Variants of special moves will always force you to play differently betwen matches with the same person.
Again, not better, not worse, just different. Time will tell if it leans towards the former or the latter.
I don’t know if you’ve played Art of Fighting, but it wasn’t a good thing in that game and I don’t know why it would be a good thing here. I mean you’re basically twisting the argument. No one said anything about this being an original idea that has never been done before. I said I don’t see how this is a positive thing for the competitive meta of the game. It doesn’t matter if other games have done it before, there’s a few reasons why Art of Fighting died faster than both Fatal Fury and of course King of Fighters did, and I’d be willing to bet that was one of them. Not the only reason sure, but really, the point is the idea being done before doesn’t make it a good idea.
How about we all just wait till it comes out. We can debate it all day… but in the end, it really comes down to how it affects gameplay and how people adapt to it.
If they aren’t required to function, why do they exist in the first place? If they aren’t required to function, why are you allowed unlimited uses of them? If they aren’t required to function, what would it matter if you could swap them out, you wouldn’t need them, right? Or could it be that instead these moves form how the character plays and what their strengths are and how they approach situations. Swapping out specials would be beneficial for dealing with certain matchups, right? I believe you alluded to that yourself. But if the specials aren’t required to function, couldn’t you fight the matchup just fine with any loadout? To put it simply, I don’t buy that argument.
Let’s be real here, none of these special moves are blowing any roofs off of houses. They are not doing anything “special”, especially not special enough to warrant the hard limitation on use. It’s all been pretty standard fare that has been generally staple moves in other fighting games, a lot of them don’t even seem like buff moves in comparison to other specials in other games. The Russian robot’s DP for example doesn’t even look like a particularly good DP, Ken’s DP is in every way a better move than that one from appearances, yet only one of these moves has a cooldown.
Ryu has both a DP and a cr.HP. DP is by default a supplement to his “normal” toolset, yet when going for an anti air he traditionally uses DP. Why? Because it is more guaranteed, in some games it does more damage, so on and so forth. Even though Ryu HAS other anti airs, he opts to go for the OPTIMAL anti air. That’s part of the issue I’m having, the game is punishing you for playing optimally. Yes, you have other anti airs, but who’s to say those answers are just as good as a DP? Just because they exist does not mean they are a suitable substitute, it’s more that you are now forced to cope with these less optimal solutions.
I don’t like that the game is forcing me to play differently. Even if it’s an overall good thing for the game to be designed this way with how the moves are designed, I am not a fan of my playstyle being dictated by the mechanics and being told what I am and am not allowed to do. Removing options from the player is never okay to me, it’s not even like you’re earning a move like a super, the only resource you have to give up is time, which requires no effort on the part of the player. I’m sure I’ve made it clear by this point, but I’m not a fan.
If you don’t want to change how you play, then just keep playing whatever you’re already playing. New games need to try different things if they want to stand out. I don’t know if it has been mentioned, but outside of DPs cooldown is barely notable on most moves. Some moves have a cooldown of like 1.2-2 seconds, which you won’t notice unless you try to do it twice in a row (And something like Chel’s projectile instantly replenishes itself if it hits, allowing you to do so anyway). You also cut 2 seconds of cooldown from all specials whenever you use Kinetic Advance. The only time I notice the cooldown is when I accidentally waste a special (Not used to the button layout).