Do reversals have invincible frames or not? Or are reversal messages just a way for the game to tell you that you counterattacked as fast as possible? eg. Ken’s Hadoken reversalled on wakeup against a meaty sweep from Ryu is not a very sound tactic, as the Hadoken will be stuffed everytime. However a reversal Shoryuken against a sweep will work everytime, but that’s due to the fact that the Shoryuken ALREADY has invincible startup frames.
Another example is: Fei and Guile cannot usually escape fireballs with the Flame Kick and Somersault Kick on startup. I know Guile can escape with the Somersault if he does it early, so that he’s over the fireball, and so can Fei with the Flame Kick, but I’m talking on startup. eg. Reversal Flame Kick and Somersault on wakeup against a meaty fireball can sometimes pass through the fireball. Is this an example of the invincible frames on a reversal? And if so, why isn’t it consistent for all reversal specials? eg reversal Hadoken on wakeup against a meaty fireball will NOT pass through the opposing fireball.
Can anyone confirm if a Jab kara cancelled into Fierce Hadoken, has faster/same recovery as a non-kara cancelled Jab Hadoken? And if not, then maybe the same recovery as a Strong Hadoken?
I know these questions are very high level, but any responses/opinions will be appreciated.
I can’t speak on the kara questions, but this I can answer. Reversals do not grant additional invincibility. Reversal messages let you know you performed the special on your first recovered frame. Shoryukens are better than Flame Kick and other AA specials on wakeup because of its innate invincibility. The only times Flame Kick or Flash Kick will go through fireballs on a wakeup reversal is when the opponent mis-times the wakeup projectile. Supers also work well as reversals because of their innate invincibility.
So in that regard, it’s entirely possible that a well-timed meaty attack from the opponent can stifle a Reversal on wake-up then?
Does this apply to the Shotos as well despite their invincibility frames on the wake-up DP Reversal? I’m still trying to figure out if my getting hit despite executing Reversals are due to me mis-timing the move on wake-up, or if it’s because I simply shouldn’t be Reversing on certain situations.
Flame kick has invincibility, flash kick has invincibility.
You can flashkick trough strong and fierce fireballs, jab ones is trickier. Hell even chun upkicks have, just much less.
The reason it’s easier if meaty is not rocket science. Since the fireball already went trough your sprite for a bit you leed less invincibility to dodge it, i’s really simple.
Shoryuken reversals will always beat a well timed meaty due to their invincibility on startup. Once their invincibility frames are finished tho, they’re vulnerable to attack. eg. Ryu’s Jab Shoryuken reversal on wakeup against Dhalsim’s Super will lose to the Super, unless Dhalsim does it too close, in which case his head can be hit.
There are certain specials that are not invincible at all, reversal or not. eg. all projectiles except for Akuma.
That’s what I thought. That Flame Kick and Somersault have invincibility on startup. Maybe not as much as Hawk’s Buster but about the same amount as Sagat’s Uppercut. Hawk’s Buster can go through fireballs on startup, but only if he’s close enough to hit the opponent I think. But not Sagat’s Uppercut. Although I have seen Reversal Uppercut go through fireballs.
It would be nice to compile a list of the most invincible-on-startup anti airs in the game. This is what I think the list would look like:
1 Akuma’s Shoryukens
2 Ken’s Strong Shoryuken
3 Ryu’s Shoryukens
4 Ken’s Jab and Fierce Shoryukens
5 Honda’s Short and Forward Splash
6 Honda’s Jab Torpedo
7 Fei’s Short Flying Kick
8 Dee Jay’s MGU
9 Boxer’s Buffalo
10 Hawk’s Buster
11 Dee Jay’s Short Upkick
12 Claw’s Flip Kick
13 Guile’s Somersault
14 Fei’s Flame Kick
15 Cammy’s Thrust Kick
16 Sagat’s Uppercut
17 Chun Li’s Upkicks
18 Zangief’s Lariat
19 Bison’s Devil Reverse
20 Cammy’s Knuckle
The criteria I used is whether the special move can go through or over fireballs, and if it can hit grounded opponents and airborne opponents.
Quick question on reversals that I don’t think deserves its own thread…
When does the reversal message come up? Is it only after knockdowns? What about getting knocked out of the air/teching a throw? After a hit stun? Blockstun?
Does the opponent have to be attacking for the reversal to come out?
Basically, I’mwondering if you can get the reversal message after getting hit in any way, or if there are special circumstances for it to pop up. I’m curious because I’m trying to practice reversal timing.
You get reversal messages out of hit/block stun and tech’d throws too. As long as you go from one animation directly into an attack animation without ever going neutral, you’ll get a reversal message.