Resist Change

Classic Fighting Games Super Street Fighter II Turbo
41

I think I want to clarify why I feel the way I do about ST versus HD. However, I think I need to make sure it is understood what I mean when using the vernacular I will be using to describe my feelings. These are the following definitions I attribute to the following words and how they will be referenced:

Expert: noun- a person with special ability or knowledge in a particular area who performs skillfully.

Skill: Adj- Ability to produce solutions in some problem domain.

Technique: Noun: The systematic procedure by which a complex task is accomplished.

Depth: Noun.- The quality of being deep; deepness

Deep: Adj - profoundly cunning or skillful.

I have stated several times that I enjoy HD. I think Sirlin got a lot of it right. However (MY OWN PERSONAL OPINION), I feel that is has less game play depth than ST. It all comes down to skill. When combining the above definitions into one cohesive thought you can say:

"An expert has the profound ability to produce solutions to complete a complex task. " Which for all practical proposes, make a whole lot of sense.

By definition, the higher the level of depth (deepness), the higher level of corresponding skill. HD Remix has reduced the skill needed for a player to do many of the following events: executing moves, escaping tick throws, escaping throws loops, escaping fireball traps, zones, and specific character match ups.

It WAS hard for some characters to avoid fireball traps, it was hard to some characters to get out of throw loops. To escape a fireball trap a player had to show patience, ingenuity, knowledge (of gameplay mechanics) , and technique (timing, execution, and precision.).

Technique, is a product of skill, skill is a product of expertise, and expertise is born from depth. If there was no depth to a subject, no expertise would be need to master it.

From my understanding HD remix was created to make a “easier / more fun” game for the casual gamer to play. However, when ever you make anything easier it reduses the expertise needed to acplish the task.

Here is an example: If golf had bigger holes, it would be more enjoyable to the average casual player. Consequentially, the game itself would require substantially less skill master. Many adavnced players may find it less stimulting to play. Not to mention Tiger Woods would be out of a job, because the wider the holes get, the less his expertise would be needed/respected/admired to “get” the ball in the hole.

Anyway, this is getting long winded. I really like HD remix. I am going to play just as much as anybody else. But for me (for the reasons out lined above), the games is not as deep, becasue it requires less expertise and its accompanied skill set to apply the techniques needed to win at high levels of gameplay.

If you disagree, cool. :smile: But this is how I see it. And from the several PMs I got, I feel other good players feel the same way (or at least pretty darn close.)

42

I – disclaimer: a well known scrub – believe one should not jump to conclusions based on a single match. Particularly, Kusumondo may have experience against the top japanese players, but he does not against the top US ones. In a game where reading your opponent’s mind is important, this should be taken into account. Sure, a perfectly played Ryu has a higher chance of beating a perfectly played Honda, but nothing is certain. As an instance, any fireball spam loses to first-hadouken-frame jump ins. Now I don’t mean Kusumondo is the CPU to read Choi’s inputs and behave accordingly, but that is when knowing the opponent helps. If he predicts a single hadouken when in range to punish it hard, he will score a round.

I would often be afraid of, eventually, getting GGPO to work, try it, then a red/grey Blanka would come up, and he would bite me. One can check Komoda videos showing how he could punish people for the minimal mistakes - and, sometimes, for no mistake at all - think it is just wrong that he could destroy people like that, but one can also find videos where other players could deal with his Blanka just fine. Which are the true ones? All of them: it depends very much not only on the characters, but the players behind the sticks and their confidence and concentration at the time the match was played. What I mean with this paragraph is that not only a match should not be analyzed alone, but a whole tourney may not be enough to conclude how strong or weak a character is.

I also disagree with the idea that counter picking is absolutely necessary in ST, and whoever does not want to switch must not touch it. I see an exaggeration, here. There are no match-ups that mean certain loss, and a few characters are pretty well rounded (Ryu, DJ and Dictator come to mind), being able to deal with the whole cast. Not to mention Sim and Boxer. (I don’t mean it is you doing it, but) it is easy to call consistent losses against a certain character a simple result of a bad match-up, but in reality few have mastered their characters enough to be sure he or she could not have played better and won some of those matches.

Just like Fatboy, I would like to make it clear that I do not want to flame or anything, and I also do not believe it was your objective. I do agree that it does not look like SFHD should be disregarded as a deep game. While I could not try it yet, I’m sure my only real issue with the game will be the speed: I can already not deal with original US ST speed 3, and SFHD is a little bit faster. But that is a personal limitation that is off topic and was discussed a lot (with Sirlin himself providing feedback) at the SFHD threads in the general discussion section, and the dev team heard the player’s impressions, and they decided to make it this way, and it is not going to change - but you can chose the speed you enjoy when playing offline (or unrated, I guess). My view is that SFHD has important advantages over ST, but while it reduced a few problems, it has brought others. It is not easy to make a game better than HF or ST, so stating a certain game is not better is no real demerit in itself. What causes feeling to old players is how often people confuse “newer” or “modern” with “better.” This misconception is what leads youngsters to believe SFHD is good, ST is bad, or some other nonsense like “HF/ST were ok, but time has passed, games evolved, so you should play Alpha 3/Third Strike/SNK stuff.”

43

Hate to be the bad guy here, but fatboy’s argument is not only fundamentally flawed, but also seems to categorically oppose progress of any sort.

Most of the execution changes implemented in HDR were present in other Capcom games for years. Is there really anybody out there who thinks that SFA2 requires more skill than SFA3 simply because you only need to press one button to do a lvl3 super in SFA3 as opposed to three buttons in SFA2?

Maybe golf holes haven’t gotten much bigger, but i bet nobody uses 500 year old golf club designs anymore. See also: Golf carts, modern sunglasses, Nike golf shoes, etc. Would forcing Tiger Woods to wear traditional Scottish leather boots add more depth to the game? More importantly, would it be the kind of depth anybody actually wants?

Careful when you speak in generalities. If there is some subtle factor that ultimately makes ST deeper than HDR, pinpointing it is gonna take a hell of a lot more data than any of us have at the moment.

44

Hmm… That certainly was not what I was looking to say. I may need to revisit what I wrote. Thanks for pointing that out. You always contribute so much to the SF scene. I always like to hear what you have to say, even if it is differnet from what I have to say. (Not a bad guy at all) I am not opposed to change. I think you are focusing to much on the easier “special moves” of my argument. Remove execution of specials, and it still doesn’t change what I am trying to communicate (even if it is poorly). :smile:

HD has systematically removed many of the subtle skill sets exibited by top level gameplay. For example: Honda and fireball traps. If Honda tries to progress forward over a series of fireballs the after recovering from block stun he has many more negative out comes for him than positive.

In many cases:
He can’t but drop, he’ll be hit on the way dawn.
He can’t jump forward, he’ll be tripped.
Depending in the speed of the fireball he can’t super.

For the most part Honda had to do the following algorithm in ST to deal with full-screen fireballs. Each element takes pieces of different skill which added up equal a reasonable advanced maneuver which could qualify as an advanced skill.

  1. Character throws fireball. Honda judges speed of fireball.

1a)If, slow fire ball Honda stakes 2 steps forward to close distance and then blocks fireball. B/C he was able to walk farther than the push-back from blocking the fireball he was to make a positive positional gain for trading a small piece of life. Honda waits for Fire-ballers next move. If fire-baller, fireballs, repeat step one.

ib) If faster fireball, Honda jumps up and uses F+fierce to clear fireball. Creating another positive positional gain.

1b2) If Honda anticipates another fireball, he jumps forward and is now within sweep distance/ strong hand slap distance from fire-baller. Situation now creates the a threat for Honda to do damage.

1b3) If Honda anticipates the fire-baller will not throw another fireball, he take two steps farther, and blocks. Wait for fireballer’s next move.

If the fire-baller is a high level player, and Honda is able to make it to option 1b2 or 1b3, the Fireballer will typical jump back with high priority move (to prevent pursuing torpedo), land, throw fireball and reestablishes zone. The process repeats until fire-baller is cornered. Once cornered, fireballers is prevented from escape and now Honda can start to apply his pressure game of sweeps, HHSlaps, throws, and negative edge orochie (spelling) throws.

In HD. If a fire-baller (other than Sim) is more than 45% of the away, and throws a fireball, algorithm is as follows.

  1. Judge fireball speed, Jab head but.

From my POV, HD removed the many of the levels of skill needed to avoid the fireball trap with Honda. There are many other situations with many other character where this type change occurred. Fei with the new wing, Cammy with the knuckles, and blanka with the new ball. There are many character specific things as well, the new throw escape with Dictator (Devil Reverse), new flash kick for Guile to deal with the low hitting pressure strings,shortening the recovery on T.Hawks Dive to prevent retaliation, and DJ’s new MU to negate fireball pressure. There are many more specific examples.

I felt as if several pieces of the game was designed as follows.

  1. Find situation where a high level of skill is need to execute a series of events to find a positive outcome. I.e. Honda dealing with fireball pressure.

  2. Remove situation. Or, provide easy solution.

Anyway, I am not sure if I made my point any better here. Again I certainly, enjoy HD. It is a great game. I am not against any type of progress. It is my fault if I did not communicate that well enough before. However, it may have been easier to say that I feel HD is a little dumbed down a little from ST, due to the fact the many situations that needed skill to create or escape have been removed.

45

HDR default speed is similar to US 2, Japanese 3.

46

Honda vs. fireball traps was not a subtlety, it was a ridiculous design flaw. Just like him raping one third of the cast for free.

Also, in HD Honda can’t just mindlessly Jab torpedo every fireball just like Rog couldn’t headbutt fireballs mindlessly in OG ST.

47

off topic

Sweet. Thanks for the heads up. Maybe it was just the beta that was faster, or stopped following the discussion too early. Now I silently finish this post so the thread can get back on topic.

48

in light of the akuma debate, I’m partial to resisting change as well.

49

question - where was damdai before HDR? ive never heard of him before HDR. maybe im just in the dark.

50

Kicking EC ass with Zangief…

51

Tech Monkey & Damdai @ MWC

EDIT:
BTW, the way a large portion of the HDR subforum discussion revolves around further changes that need to be made dovetails very nicely with what the Professor has been writing in this thread.

52

Okay. I’m not gonna dispute any of that.

However, the big question isn’t what they removed. The big question is: What will take its place?

You keep talking about how Honda has an easier job in HDR (which is a valid point). What you neglect to mention is how bringing the tiers closer together means ALL of O.ST’s top characters now have to work harder on average. If this holds true, then Evo2k9 will be even more interesting because the eventual winner will have had to struggle through nearly every match. Fewer matches will be decided on the character select screen.

On the other hand, if the anti-Akuma crusade turns out to be not so exaggerated, or if someone finds CE Bison, then we can all come back here and talk shit.

53

I’m new this year. Most people know me as the undisputed Helicopter champion of 2008!

54

hahahaha I remember that little trophy next to your name lol. I was like wtf is that shit ? Did he win EVO or some shit lol ?

55

I’m still number 1, but where’d my trophy go?!

56

Who is techmonkey? I played a guy with that name on GGPO… also he’s not on the link you provided (unless its under a different name)

57

Chris Doyle

58

I knew making two playlists from those Shag vids on youtube would come in handy one day. :wgrin:

59

I need some old timers to tell me if should buy sfhd, no one plays st on 2df anymore. :sad:

60

come to ggpo