I’ll be Brother "Dicky Do."
Because my belly sticks out farther than my dicky do…
^^
lol
I agree with Shirts. HD remix is fun in all
but YuuBal style FTW.
Well count me out then if we can’t wear um ( thats me in the pict. btw )
Shirts is just mad cause you can’t pick OSim lol.
I am mad too.
(just kidding, of course)
…Finding myself strangely turned on… No further comment…
I don’t see why someone would keep playing old ST other than for nostalgia (well, I lie. I will still play it because I have no next gen console yet). And I’m actually really happy that this game managed to get a lot of new people into ST.
The new release brought people to HD not ST.
HD is not ST…
Just like “Hyper” is not “Champion Edition.”
Some pieces are game are similar, but they are not the same game.
Many of the new player need everything easy mode: Easy moves to exicute, easy ways out of trap eascapes, easy way around fire balls, and easy ways to deal with Multi Hit grabs.
They would not be able to hang with high level of technical difficulty in ST. I am not trying to hate, or troll, but it is my observation.
As Damdai says, this game is 99% ST. And the changes in controls aren’t “easy mode”. Some motions in ST were pretty questionable and unnecessarily difficult. The other changes you mention are positive too, even though they aren’t “easy” ways to deal with stuff. The ways some characters had to fight those things were crappy, now they have a better chance but they are far from being “easy”.
ST is an excellent game, but please let’s not delude ourselves into thinking that it’s perfect and that it didn’t need any changes.
And please let’s not delude ourselves into thinking that HD is perfect. Like fatboy said it’s not better than ST, it’s just a different game.
On a side note I see more and more people say shit like “lol why do you play ST that game is broken” on 2df. Then I watch some of their matches and see that they don’t even have the basics down. They delude themselves into thinking that their difficulties in ST was the result of the game being broken, and that the changes in HD will make things better. How pathetic.
It’s not perfect of course because no game will ever be perfect, but it corrects a lot of ST’s issues.
I beat some guy about five times in a row one day at the local arcade. The last game I have a huge health lead in the second round, finish him off with whatever, he turns to me and says “that was random damage right?” Not 100% sure what he meant; I was scratching my nose and watching some girl play DDR but it’s like, if that were fixed – if the game weren’t so damned BROKEN – he would have won. Sure.
There’s an old interview with Daigo where he says that the single most difficult thing about playing fighting games is not making excuses when you lose. Unless you can keep your mouth shut and play on you’ll never really win.
I want to make sure we keep this conversation positive, so I want to point out that I am definitely NOT trying to flame. I am enjoying the discussion.
I would like to point out there are just as many changes fro ST to HD as there are from CE to hyper.
I think it is strong statement of fact: Given the level of game play changes, Hyper considered a VERY different (more than a 1% difference) game compared to CE, therefor Hd would have to be considered a different game than ST given its similar level of changes…
Damdai is certainly entitled to his opinion. He seems like a great guy. I am certainly not trying to criticize his point of view. Depending on his POV, he may be correct depending on what points he is talking about.
The game has 100% of the game play fundamentals that all CPS 1 /2 Street Fighters had. However, the functional and property changes of the character’s normals, specials, supers , and throws definitely change much of the strategic and practical strategies/ applications of such moves in the character match ups in the game more than 1%.
The really are 2 different games. IIRC, I think Sirlin even said he wants this to be viewed and the NEXT installment of SF2 not the modified version of ST.
I agree that NO game will be perfect. However many of the changes in HD that try and solve the problems in ST create many problems and issues of its own. Game play flaws are not exclusive to ST. I think we just traded some old design flaws for new ones that I happend to like less. I still enjoy playing SF, and yes even HD. However, for my self, in my own views and expereices, I think ST is a better, deeper, and more advanced game.
Many will disagree and that is understood and prefectly fine. I repsect that. But, for me ST was a superior game for more expereinced players.
I don’t think the difference is as big as CE to HF, considering the speed increase. The difference is nowhere as big between ST and HDR; there are only character tweaks this time around.
As for the second part, how do these changes make HDR a less advanced game, exactly? The inputs certainly don’t make it a less advanced game. More complex motions don’t make a game more complex. Would you make the motions even more unnecessarily complicated if you were in charge of rebalancing the game? Giving Gief Kusaregedo’s SPD command won’t make him a deeper character, that will just alienate most people.
Also, how is giving characters that had an unfair disadvantage against projectiles some tools to get around them? Especially considering that these tools still require a lot of thought and skill to use correctly? Now the projectile characters have to think a bit more against characters like Honda, Fei and Cammy, too. How is this a bad thing?
I’m really interested in reading a complete explanation on why exactly do you think that these things make HDR a less complex game. Because from what I’ve been reading so far, it’s more of a nostalgia thing than anything else.
Finally, two questions: is HF not as deep as ST because DPs are easier to execute there? Is ST not as deep as HF because some characters got ways to fight projectile characters (a complaint I read frequently from HF players)?
neither game is better christ.
it’s like all the HF heads who complain about too many characters having anti air special moves in ST that they didn’t have in HF.
The speed increase in HF isn’t really a big change at all unless you’re playing emulated versions. Only certain specials like projectiles are a great deal faster. That said, I still agree HF has far more noticeable changes with its new moves and heavily changed properties.
Playing claw, I definitely don’t think STHD is 99% similar to ST in actual play. It’s true that players’ algorithmic processes are still about 99% the same; my overall “game flow” is pretty much identical (i.e. I use the same poking or wall diving mixup options in pretty much the same situations as before, keeping in mind the few changes that affect my matchups). I would hope that this was probably more of what damdai was getting at.
However, in the actual events of play, the changes can show much different occurrences happening (i.e. poking more since I can’t repeatedly wall dive even though the ratio of pokes to non-wakeup wall dives hasn’t changed). And consequently, even if I use my same set of strategies and my opponent does the same, the actual results may not necessarily be the same (i.e. if I previously had an average of 10% free damage per round on okizeme wall dives, that would mean a lot of previously close matches in my favor will now swing the other way). That’s why I believe that the difference in actual play is greater than 1%.
But of course, the Prof and nh2 are right as well. In most cases, the better player will win out no matter the minor changes since he knows the underlying basics better as well as more ways in which to adapt. So far, it’s not yet clear to me why the gameplay changes in STHD were needed besides to appease some more casual players who didn’t and still don’t understand ST all that well. It looks to be a bit more balanced at this time (with Gouki possibly being the exception) but was that really necessary?
At times, Capcom has strived for balance; and in other times, they seemed to just ignore that in part. Just look at 3S and explain how anybody at Capcom balancing the game would have somehow thought Twelve and Sean could compete with the other characters. Didn’t Muteki say that he appreciated the different characters’ power dynamics and didn’t Aniken state that he enjoyed playing as a weaker character for the thrill of beating better characters?
As for ST vs. STHD compared on each game’s own features, I’m still considering. I prefer ST claw obviously and removing the wall dive knockdown actually destroyed the critical need of many characters to figure out strategies on how to stop it. In this example, one aspect of ST’s complexity has been reduced to become far less important.
Biron, you know I’ve got nothing but respect for you and nh2 and the rest of the ST heads here, but I think you’re all off on this one.
The people saying that ST is balanced are making the same mistake as the 3s people, I think. That is, they look at Japanese tournaments without realizing that the single-game, single-elim format makes all games look more balanced than they actually are. Luck plays a larger role there than in our 2/3 double-elim tournaments.
Hell, look no further than Kusumondo at Evo this year. The best Honda in the world looked utterly helpless against Valle & Choi, both of whom picked Ryu and did nothing but fireball & sweep.
I can see the appeal of characters representing different “difficulty levels” and such, but I would rather have a game where you can pick your favorite character AND win at the same time.
There’s more to it than that, even. Whenever I try to explain to my Guilty Gear-playing friends why ST is a great game, a common objection raised is the need for counter-picking. You have to understand that in Guilty Gear, there are no 7-3 matchups in the entire game, and players tend to stick with one character.
When this has come up, a couple friends of mine have said “I refuse to play a game where you have to counter-pick,” and I never have a good answer to that other than “yeah, don’t play ST”. The reality is that to win an ST tournament with 70+ people, you do have to counter-pick unless you play one of the few characters who can handle everybody (i.e. Sim, Rog, Vega, Chun).
And another reality is that at the highest level, in any game, you cannot consistently win the 3-7 matches. Sure, Komoda & Pony put together a few epic beatdowns and became Youtube semi-stars, but do they actually have an overall winning record against the likes of Shooting D and Tsuji and Gian? I would highly doubt it. We went through this in 3s, where we found out the low-tier heroes did much worse in tournaments than we thought.
All of this is just a detailed way of saying that ST was a great but extremely flawed game and I think the goal of HD Remix was a worthy one.
Where I will side with you somewhat is that I am not thrilled with the execution of SFHD in some ways. Akuma is the most obvious example, but I also think they didn’t do enough to help Cammy/Fei/Gief/Ken and they took the wrong approach to Honda (read: not nerfing jab headbutt). Sirlin’s whole idea of “if it’s broken, you have to beat me with it” was wrongheaded, given that he’s one of the top ST players in the country; a more scientific approach, using multiple top players and hundreds of matches, would have yielded better results.
But I enjoy many other changes, and it does appear that the bad matchups are less bad overall and the tiers are closer together. In fighting games, I value tactical variety at the highest level above all else, and Remix may well offer more of this than ST thanks to nobody being a total waste anymore.
Just my .02 (or more like $1.00?),
Josh.
The existence of HDR or any other “improved” revision in no way diminishes the undisputed fact that ST and HF are two of the finest competitive fighting games ever created.
Even with its flaws, HDR turned out great - in fact much better than i had expected. I’m genuninely excited about seeing the game played at Evo2k9. It’s awesome how HDR is reexposing the world to the core of ST, which is still completely intact and unaltered.
However, it also makes no sense whatsoever to blame Shirts for preferring ST. That dude has lost to all of the bullshit that ST has to offer, he’s done it on the biggest stages in the SF world, and he has been angry about it. If he still likes ST, there’s not much anyone can do to undermine his choice.
Personally i haven’t made up my mind which is better and i think anyone who decides before Evo2k9 (at the earliest) is jumping to conclusions. The only thing that’s for certain is that the whole “HDR improved ST therefore ST was flawed” argument needs to die a painful death. Everything is flawed. ST is still great.
I agree with everything in that post, Maj, well put. I’m just saying that to think ST was a model of perfection that couldn’t be improved is bullshit as well.