Remix Honda Thread

Classic Fighting Games SSF2T: HD Remix
761

Speaking as a dictator mainer, get right up in his face. This matchup is all about best offense wins for me.Bison can deal with you all day if you’re far away. His st.LP beats your torpedo straight, and nothing else you have at distance can bother him. Unless you get on top of him he can hit and run you all day. All your options involve getting close and pressuring him.

Other, better honda players than me will probably correct me or add lots to this but here’s a few tips:

Watch his headstomp, especially if you’re not in the corner, he has a very nasty stomp>crossup mixup game and can stun you easily off a single mistake here. Jump fierce punch if you see a headstomp coming, and if you’re in range, mash to get a HHS for a bit of chip damage when he lands into it.

If he’s silly enough to try fierce crusher and you block it, let him chip you 3 times and cross over past you, and HHS him.Fierce HHS will knock him out of the air, you’ll win the exchange on damage, and score a knockdown, and it’s “jump-in city” for you.

Learn honda’s different grabs into safe jumps and grabs into crossup/trip shenanigans, they’re useful against almost everyone, and make sure to keep your stored ochio handy.Tick ochios are great against him, learn to negative edge your command grabs to give you a safe ochio/block option select.

If your timing is good you can jump in on dictator on wakeup all day as long as he has no super meter. Put him under lots of pressure, don’t get off the gas, and corner him corner him, corner him. A dictator defending, and especially defending in the corner, is not a happy one.

Jumping short and down + mk splash both feel like they have different length jump arcs, mix up ticking with those and going straight for an ochio on landing. Jumping short into ochio is tricky because the airtime feels a little quicker than a normal jump.It feels like it lands earlier than you’d expect, and it can throw off an opponent who’s not sharp, but use it at your peril, you can get reversal thrown easily.

Chip the crap out of him any chance you get with blocked HHS, there’s very little he can do about it short of reversal supering you.Fierce HHS is good for closing space and getting a bit of chip damage if you get a knockdown but you’re still too far away to jump in. Fierce buttslam into HHS is useful but can be risky, it’s not foolproof, but most dictators will have to block it and will lose lots of chip damage.

This matchup is in honda’s favour on paper, but you’ve got to know how to play it. I’m sure you’ll get better advice than mine, some of the hondas in here are downright scary!!

Oh, and one more thing, watch his cr.MK, it’s one of his best, hi priority fastest, most useful normals, and can cancel into just about any special move he has.If you’re playing someone who’se handy with it, be afraid of it, and be very careful around it, especially on wakeup. If you’re getting up off a knockdown, and he’s kinda just loitering about somewhere close to you and not really doing anything, he’s probably up to some shenanigan that involves poking with that move. Don’t fall for it.

Good luck.

762

cheers man, thats a really good starting point, so what are bnb combos? Has anyone got a vid? I keep hearing about this jumping short, what use is that? And agaisnt dictator whats my best option against the torpedo? HHS is safe to move in with you say? How does dictators torpedo trade with it? at all?

You didn’t mention jab headbutt thing, from the first page they make out its a godsend, have people worked out thats just not that effective?

763

That’s not a meaty walldive, but in any case the reason you were able to punish that slide is that Sirlin piloted the dive too high and far. You can see that if he had piloted it a little lower and closer, he would have recovered faster and closer and been able to punish you. That he went as far as he did was also clearly just a mistake; he knew that he could punish buttslam if he timed things properly, so he tried the slide and unfortunately for him he was a little off. You can see very similar but properly timed setups in [media=youtube]RyscC6-Fq0A"[/media] at :31, 1:33, and a couple other times.

764

The only combos i use are either jumping hk, cr lk, fierce torpedo (nice damage, easy combo), Jumping HK cr.LK xx MP HHS (a little tougher but there’s a great mixup into an ochio if you stop the hands early enough. There are also a couple of really good crossup combos and even a crossup super combo that use his heavy kick to cross up. Read further down this thread for lots of info.

Jumping short was beefed up in the remix changes for HDR so honda could have some kind of answer to shotos like ryu and ken who zone him all day with fireball>sweep lockouts.They made the priority and hitboxes nice and sharp so you could hit the sweep clean instead of losing to it when you jumped over the fireball, but it’s also very useful for dealing with stuff like dictator’s crusher and blanka’s super, and a few other moves.

Dictator’s psycho crusher will beat your HHS clean unless you hit it in the startup phase.Once he’s airborne he has priority in HD remix. Your best bet is block and counter with HHS.You should hit, or at least chip plenty of life away and will usually win on damage. You can Jump and heavy kick it too, he’s vulnerable towards the back of the crusher, the head of it is the part to keep out of the way of. Your j.HK is a great move to to beat a crusher with but is a lot more risky.

A good dictator won’t be crushering too much against you, it’s easy to punish the move.

And yeah, you’re right, i didn’t mention the jab headbutt, but that’s not really specific to dictator, use that as an anti air against anyone who jumps in on you, time it late just as their attack is about to hit you, the invincible startup will cause their attack to whiff and you’ll hit them before they land. Avoid the temptation to use too many long distance telegraphed headbutts in this match though, if it’s blocked it will bounce you way back out of range, where you don’t want to be vs Dictator.

Read back through this thread from the start, even if it takes ages. Do it in a few sittings. You’ll get loads of good tips, and my info here is mostly just repeating what’s already been said.

765

:31 is against the wall, so yeah he was hit. HK buttslam that hits the wall is indeed very punishable.

1:33 is more interesting. I suspect that if Kusumondo buttslammed just a bit earlier, he would have been safe, since Noguchi moved to Kusumondo’s back fairly early in his walldive. But you have a good point that sometimes the HK buttslam is punishable.

766

Watch out about being too offensive against a good Dictator, because any major mistake can result in a dizzy and losing 90-100% life. Random fierce headbutt can result in Dic jumping back mk/rh, low mk xx crusher/scissors; random whiffed buttslam can result in stand lk, st lk, cr. mk xx crusher/scissors; pressuring him in the corner poorly (ie whiffed throw normal, whiffed hands) can result in Dic jump back mk/rh, low mk xx crusher/scissors; etc.

A good Dictator isn’t gonna jump at you really, he’s gonna jump ON you with the game’s best and most damaging crossup. He can jump from the same exact location with his mk, and whether it’s a crossup or not is the result of a variance in when he presses mk (just a few frames can be the difference). And unfortunately, when timed/placed this way his mk can sometimes whiff through or beat your headbutt. Basically your options are guess which way to block and if you guess wrong your dead, or buttslam out and probably eat a slide but not have to risk death. Of course if your Bison opponent is just jumping right at you, antiair headbutt him all day.

As for crusher, crusher fully beats headbutt and hands and max range jab crusher is totally safe on block. To beat it, use last minute far standing jab or last minute jab headbutt (which can still trade if the crusher has much active time left).

When you’re pressuring Bison in the corner, watch out because he’s really really squirrelly on wakeup. He gets up faster than anyone else in the game, his hitbox as he gets up is really small, and he has good throw range, and with invincible devils reverse he can get right out of grounded ticks if he has charge. You’re better off doing something like neutral jump mk or not-close-range (but also not max) toward jump mk.

Watch out for his far standing roundhouse to start the round, it beats/trades with hands and headbutt.

This is a pretty even matchup, imo.

767

Vega has no reliable way to deal damage to Honda unless he can reach the opposite wall. Everything else is subject to headbutt which leads into Honda shenanigans which can utterly destroy Vega if he can get it off even once.

When Vega is in the corner there is almost no way he will not take damage.

This coupled with Vega’s inability to threaten Honda if Honda has lifelead in the corner is what makes it a hard matchup for him.

768

^ Did you see the link I linked where the best N Honda player ever gets basted by a Claw who bounces off his own wall and likes jab rolls? I definitely agree with Megaman that it can be a hard matchup for a Claw player to learn, but once learned it’s pretty even.

769

ST is not HDR.
Kusumondo needs to Headbutt own wall, walldives instead of trying to air-to-air.

And you need the understand that a bad matchup does not mean it is unwinnable.

A matchup is not a you will win or you will lose definer. Therefore showing a Claw player winning the match proves nothing. It’s the same as showing Pony beating a whole bunch of Sim players. Player skill can always overcome a bad matchup that does not change the matchup being bad.

Matchups are entirely theory fighter by definition.

Trust me i know the matchup fairly well but since you seem to know something i do not feel free to post your take on it in the Claw thread as to help all Claw players.

770

I’m pretty sure Kusumondo is well aware of his options against Vega’s dives. He actually did headbutt a couple times to try to preemptively beat Noguchi’s diving off his own wall and got jump back fierced for it. Besides, notice how Noguchi only ever dives off his wall when he’s close enough to it that Honda can’t react with a headbutt, and how he never dives directly at Kusumondo’s crouching Honda so that headbutt is never an issue? And did you see how Noguchi was mixing up his dives? Sometimes he’d press punch early specifically to beat Kusumondo’s jumping normals that would have beaten the dive if Noguchi hadn’t pressed punch so early.

By the way, the dive is the same in Remix except for its knockdown properties and mostly useless fake dive, and nothing about how Honda deals with dives has changed. Honda does better in HDR because now he can’t get stuck in a repeating dive trap and he can chase and chip Vega a little better with easier fierce hands, but the dive situation itself is the same.

When the best N Honda (Kusumondo) and one of the best Vegas (ARG) in ST got together and helped make a matchup chart, they put the matchup at 6-4 in Claw’s favor. It’s a little more in Honda’s favor now, and I tend to think 6-4 was an overestimation anyway, but even now in HDR it’s not far from even. No offense, but I really don’t think you know the matchup as well as you think.

Also, feel free to post whatever you want anywhere.

771

That’s probably the thing I fear most about Bison. If you try to headbutt it, you’ll almost always get knocked out (I miss HF Honda’s headbutt hitbox so much!). If you try to block you have a 50/50 chance of getting combo’ed. Try to sumo splash out you’ll get hit out on the way down and set up for more shenanigans. Hate that so much.

Oh and thanks for the Vega tips fellas. Once I get them in a corner it is almost always game over but lately I’ve been facing a lot of good ones that know how to run away.

772

I obviously do not which is why i have already asked you to post your take on it in the Vega thread so that i and other Vega players can learn it better.

773

You should quote some of these messages and make a post of your own in the Vega thread!

BTW - If our ping wasn’t always 200+ (not a fun latency for Honda v. Vega) - I’d totally play with you more.

No, he can space it so that he’s not hit on the way up by either HK or MK butt slam, and he’ll also hit Honda out of all versions of the torpedo. He can flip kick if the butt slam gets through, because he has a down back charge.

774

so whats my best opening move against dictator? sit and wait?

Should i turtle or should i always be charging? Am I right that i should always downback charge so not to be backing away?

775

This might help:

http://forums.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=188156&page=2

It’s a thread i started a while back about what opening moves people prefer to use against certain characters and why. Thelo (one of the best hondas on XBL) recommended charging down back and waiting to head butt against dictator’s jump.

Personally as a dictator player, this one’s a bit of a guessing game in round 2 or later depending on whether the honda is defensive or not, but in round one if i have no idea what he’ll do i either step forward a bit and standing HK/MK or wait and spam standing LP, so torpedoes and buttslams are a bad idea for you. Bison’s st.LP beats all your torpedoes cold. HHS is dangerous to open with cos it trades with a lot of bison’s stuff, and he still has time to jump towards or away berfore it comes out, so you could open yourself up for a crossup combo if you’re not careful. As well as that, your Buttslam is punishable by any number of normals or i can just jump away from it.

Now that i think about it, sitting and waiting with either a fierce or jab torpedo depending on what bison does is probably a good idea.

PS-Not sure how advanced level or not you are, so i don’t want to sound patronizing, so sincere apologies in advance if you already know this, but generally you should always be charging at all possible times with charge characters. Unless there’s some reason for it in terms of defence, blocking, or positioning, your goal should be to always have all of your charge special moves available on reaction any time you need them.If there’s some way of advancing/retreating while keeping your charge, use that instead of giving it up.Charge both down and back while jumping, turtling, torpedoing, etc and where possible jump forward or use moves that allow you to advance forward (eg guiles knee lunge, deejay’s slide, honda’s buttslam) rather than walking forward and losing charge (as long as it’s safe to do so).

For example, playing as bison, if i throw someone, and want to get in close for a wakeup poke or whatever on the ground before they get up, i will always jump into position in front of them while they’re knocked down, rather than just walking up to them, because jumping allows me to advance forward and to charge my special moves at the same time.

With honda, a large number of his matchups end badly for him if he’s kept at a distance from the opponent, so you will probably want to get close to your enemy.Charging back, which will result in walking backwards is probably a no-no, unless you’re trying to corner yourself against claw or someone like that, you generally want to go forward, or keep position, so turtle down back unless you need to block high, and even then only do it for a split second unless you suspect an overhead attack is coming.Against a good ryu for example, if you walk backwards, you might never get a chance to get back in close to him again…

776

Mackdaddi is pretty much right on the money!

One circumstance in which you might want to hold straight back instead of down-back is fullscreen against Bison, when you actively try to keep your distance (you have life advantage and trying to run down the clock) since that way you don’t have to react to his lightning-quick headstomps, and you don’t really have any low Bison attacks to worry about.

It’s also easier to jump from standing than it is from crouching, so again it’s easier to jump on reaction to Bison’s headstomps. Quicker reaction jumping is the second reason why sometimes I’ll willingly stay standing instead of crouching: when I need to reaction neutral jump fierce over a fireball.

Outside of these two scenarios though, you’ll either be walking forward or holding down-back. And don’t forget you can advance with the HHS while holding down-back. :wink:

777

I have one bit of advice that wasn’t covered by either Mack or Thelo.

Learn to standing far standing jab dictator’s scissor and psycho crusher. You can do it on reaction. And it totally trips them out when you are walking straight for them and they cant scissor and psycho crusher. It can also be an opening move.

Also, there is an ambiguous cross-up opportunity after landing a FP grab on Dic (and others, see previously in the thread.) Hop in training mode and practice grabbing Dic and holding up-towards during the hug. When you reach the apex of the jump after the throw ends, press either RH or Down+MK. 90% of the time it’s a free cross-up.

EDIT: I will also say that the far standing jab is a very useful tool in a number of matches, notably Blanka, Honda, Gief, Hawk, Dictator, Fei Long, Ryu, and believe it or not Dhalsim. Each of these characters has a move that can be beat by or baited by far standing jab.

Dhalsim - You can counter a lot of his standing limbs at full to mid screen with far standing jab. You can beat or trade his standing FP with cr.LK, and neutral jump MK too. Neutral jump MK is a great move to use when neutral jumping a fireball in this match. I certainly don’t use it as often as I should.

Honda - Headbutt and HHS, and a whiffed butt slam can all be hit with stand jab.

Ryu - Use standing jab as a meaty from max range to bait a SRK and after you do that do a standing jab meaty into throw because they wont reversal a second time in a row.

Dictator - Scissor kick and psycho crusher can both be interrupted with it.

Blanka - Shut down horizontal ball while walking in, use cr.LK XX HHS for the slide.

Fei Long - From the right distances standing jab will beat Rekka punches and Chicken Wing kick.

Gief - From the right distance standing jab beats every jump in Gief has.

Hawk - Also great as an anti air, and can also beat his Hawk Dive and Hawk Uppercut from the right range. Obviously Jab Headbutt is the better option here but this is a great backup if you don’t have a charge.

778

standing jab is a bit risky for me, i’m good but i used to main ryu and constantly ate blankas roll attack even when i was trying to cr.mp.

I’ll keep it in mind though, thank you!

So, whats hondas best anti air against the head stomp? I presume i’ve got two options, jumping neutral hp (should i move at all left or right whenever i use this move?) or should i use standing hp? that chop thing? As he comes down i should’ve been charging from either move so do i go for torpedo? or hhs?

Chip damage i think is quite critical in this matchup. Has anyone got a couple of honda vs dict vids? This free cross up thing sounds interesting, why does down and mk make a difference? (as opposed to just mk?)

779

The reason jumping MK doesn’t work is that it’s hitbox won’t allow it to cross up, where as down+mk (the belly flop) has a great hitbox for crossups.

Against bison (and any others that can be crossed up after a Fierce squeeze) I use jump RH 99% of the time. Even if you don’t know which side you’ll end up on, you’ll still be pretty safe and can hit cr.short xx slaps which will work on both sides. And once you have that down you can start getting tricky with throw mixups or big combos like crossup J.RH, cl. jab, cr.short XX fierce headbutt.

Ninja edit: That headbutt combo doesnt work on bison, oops!

780

The stomp has insane priority on bison’s feet. It?s very dangerous trying to hit it from the ground with anything but the best anti air special moves (flashkick, dragon punch, etc). 99% of the time it will hit you on the deck no matter what normal you use and then you?ll have any number of mixups to deal with from bison. Being hit by a stomp on the ground, or even blocking a stomp from the ground is much more dangerous than being knocked out of the air with it IMO. Bison has an awesome amount of shenanigans options on a grounded opponent after his stomp makes contact, he can crossup, or pilot the move to go literally anywhere he wants to be on the screen, and it?s VERY easy for him to make you guess wrong, fuck your shit up, dizzy you, and then combo you to death, so when you have a feeling he?s going to stomp you should ideally try to deal with him from the air instead. Worst case scenario is that you get hit once in the air if you mess up, but bison loses his mixup opportunity, rather than taking a potential 2 or 3 heavy hits on the ground from a stomp followed by a mixup.

The problem is that the stomp is so fast from any distance away, especially full screen, that it?s very tough to react to. You have to anticipate it, and if you jump early it will hit you out of the air on your way down. It?s the same kind of guessing game as jab headbutting thru ryu?s fireball, you need good timing and anticipation-Move too early or too late and you?re going to get hurt.

My advice would be to watch the player?s playstyle, predict the headstomp, and jump and hit it in bison?s mid section/head from as far away as you can with whatever punch you feel confident with (punches hit higher than kicks in mid air, this is better for hitting a stomp). Light punches are safer because they stay out longer and need less strict timing, but they won?t make bison as frustrated or afraid to jump as swatting him with a fierce will.

Generally a backwards or up jump is best. If you jump back you keep your back charge, and also it gives you a bit more time till the stomp gets to you to react, and if bison goes for a fierce crusher instead of a stomp there?s more chance of you landing in time and blocking instead of getting hit out of the air. It?s sometimes a tradeoff against positioning if you jump backwards, for reasons already mentioned, but you can jump up floating fierce and begin a back charge in mid air if you don?t want to retreat too much and give up space in the match. Generally it?s not an issue because apart from on wakeup if bison is right on top of you and using it for an overhead, the stomp is only really scary if you?re at full screen distance away, in which case jump backwards to keep your charge.

A good tip is if you see that a player is very trigger happy with headstomping, throw out a random jump up floating fierce every now and again from a safe distance, just to make him afraid to stomp too much. Good guile players do this to me a lot, they sonic boom and immediately jump back fierce chop. Sometimes it works, and I stomp right into the chop, and sometimes not, but It always makes me think a lot more cautiously about using headstomp to get over sonic booms. Good ryu players will randomly jump forward MP to try to catch me in mid stomp and start a juggle. Both of these things will control the horizontal space and shut down my options making it more difficult to just throw out stomps with little or no risk.