Rebalancing ST Remix

Classic Fighting Games SSF2T: HD Remix
421

I hate to be baited into more, I’ll try to stop here, but this is an amazing troll post. :wink: You can name only one match in the entire game that is closer than it was? Nice!

Guile vs. Dhalsim. (mostly about no low punch under sonic boom, also rh flashkick)
Zangief vs. Honda (ability to sweep hands helps quite a bit)
Cammy vs. Honda (hands less priority and damage, ochio dizzy cut in half, cannon drill pressure)
Fei Long vs. Honda (not great but better than it was for same reasons as above, also better rekkas and super helps)
Fei Long vs. Ken/Ryu/Sagat (way better rekkas, practical air juggle, better super, at range of 1 or 2 characters distance short chicken wing changes the match)
Vega vs. Guile
Bison vs. Ryu
Bison vs. Honda (was far in honda’s favor, now much closer)
Zangief vs. Vega (hop, green hand recovery, running grab all help slightly, low fierce vs wall dive forces vega into a different gameplan)
Honda vs. Guile (honda has some chance of getting in)
Cammy vs. Dhalsim (jump strong no longer beats all dhalsim’s anti airs, instead beats all but slide. overall matchup much closer)
everyone(?) vs sagat
everyone(?) vs balrog
Blanka vs Ryu (no longer get hit back and knocked down with red fireball everytime ryu blocks your roll, also better super and somewhat useable rainbow roll)

Those are just off the top of my head.

422

Rekka’s dont help agaisnt Honda, and I still don’'t understand the nerf behind the flame kick or the CW and it’s combo’s.

Jiggly: Didn’t say it was impossible, I’ve beaten Thelo’s honda a few times and Aqua Snake’s Fei managed to perfect him once. The few victories still doesn’t negate the match however, I beat DGV’s ryu last night and even perfected him 1 or 2 rounds…but ryu still kicked my ass and it was pretty 1 sided for the most part.

423

Pretty much all matchups vs Vega were lessened in his favour.

Lots of characters got normals or specific moves to deal with him (Guile, Sim, Gief etc)
And he did not really get anything to help him in any matchup where he had problems.

Fake does nothing for him.
The idea was that it would help him against Ken but he has never utilized Walldives as a major strategy against ken and he still won that match.
Same idea was that it would help him against Blanka but it has never been part of his matchup strategy there either.

Sirlin himself seems to imply that it was worthless doing it:
“Why was I not afraid? Because doing repeated fake wall dives left my opponents with no real advantage over just sitting there and doing nothing. Yes its tricky in that you never know which wall dive will have teeth and which will be fake, but I mostly ignored it and jump roundhoused (or air hurricane kicked) at them anyway.”

And that was against the non nerfed version of the fake where it was 3 times faster and could be steered.

And the reason for it being nerfed is something i to this day cannot understand.
If i understand it correctly the wall dive fake was slowed down because it let him get away from Cammy. Theoretically.

Since according to the same paragraph:
“And yet one thing they demonstrated was important. James Chen showed that in ST with Vega vs. Cammy, if Vega does blocked low jab, cancels into off-the-wall (opposite wall) then holds back to stay away, Cammy can still cannon spike him. In other words, he cannot use the wall dive to turn his low jab into a safe runaway tool in ST. But the same setup in HD Remix with the fake wall dive did allow him to be safe vs. the cannon spike. Even though no one demonstrated anything in real gameplay, the mere potential for more Vega runaway was enough to show that we needed to weaken the move.”

It was never shown to actually affect the matchup in real gameplay yet was nerfed. Which is something i cannot understand.

Now feel free to flame me for complaining about solid character :looney::sweat:

424

let me say “thanks” to sirlin for HDR. its my favorite game of all time. for real. if you would indulge some of the specific questions people have…i am wondering, if there was another patch, are there any balance changes you would make now that the game has been out this long and “play tested to death” so to speak?

PS. thanks to the nameless coward for the “stay out of this thread please” neg! if i have anything else to say, i WILL say it.

425

How about every single Honda matchup?

426

What? Really? You don’t think Claw is worse against 'Gief? What about Guile? What about everyone with a fireball vs Honda, particularly Guile and DeeJay? Hell, Guile/Claw/Gief/Honda all seem to have more even match-ups now, and Dhalsim and particularly Boxer are less powerful as well.

Semi-joke: O.Sagat/N.Sagat vs everyone, Akuma vs everyone

edit - Shari, Claw was top tier, of course he was nerfed. :wink:

427

Sirlin made some good choices but he just made some nerfs which confuse me…mainly with fei.

428

I agree most of the matchups chart is still the same, only a few changed the top 3 didn’t change much (Boxer/Vega/Sim) most of their matchups imo are still the same.

I see Zangief vs Sim easier now than VST, Gief vs Guile too.

Fie on the other hand, I can’t see a single good matchup now he’s a worst loser than before !

429

I think Gridman was specifically referring to T.Hawk but didn’t outright say it, considering the ‘try harder’ comment, and the fact that Gridman mains Hawk. And in the list linked above in Sirlin’s post Hawk isn’t mentioned. I don’t think it was a troll post, I think most Hawk players, familiar with ST, dislike the new changes and rightly so in my opinion.

So with that regarding just Hawk I don’t possibly see how most of his match ups got better. In fact many, if not most, of them got even worse. There is enough evidence in the Hawk thread describing why his new dive hurts him more than helps him across the board against the 15 different characters. And the new whiff animation plus a lack of active grab frames is a tremendous nerf to his offensive prowess. Throw in a broken SUPER motion and you have a perfect recipe to cook up some complaints about R.Hawk.

Against a top level Guile player the R.Hawk vs R.Guile match up is terribly in Guile’s favor. So while Hawk might have improved against Dhalsim, like Gridman asserted, he has been weakened against 14 other characters in the process in many cases considerably.

Hawk vs Cammy, Honda, DJ are nightmares. And against anyone with a solid reversal the command throw now loses to those moves making those matches awfully frustrating for R.Hawk.

Against good Ken, Fei, Ryu etc. players I get DP’d out of my command throw 100% more often because in ST I could just negative edge option select the throw and be safe. And while you might argue that an option select on a command throw is unfair…Honda still has one. Not only that but the number of times per round that I get a chance to perform a command throw within range against characters with good reversals has remained the same, in my opinion, from ST to HDR. Meaning I still have the same chances to get in and perform a 360 command throw, but now my opponent has a new option of beating my command throw with a reversal.

So same chances to get in to perform the throw, but a the throw can be beaten (and often is against really excellent players).

Just this week in the Hawk thread someone, possibly Gridman, pointed out that a successful dive in HDR with R.Hawk could be punished depending on where it hit. So if you hit a character in the head with the new dive at the top of his or her hitbox they can punish you with any number of attacks even if your dive connects for a hit.

The new dive was supposed to be safe or at least safer. In HDR you can get a hit and get punished. In ST if you get a hit with the old dive it is always a knockdown no matter where you hit your opponent on his or her hitbox. How exactly is that safe or even safer?

430

Just for the record, Cammy actually loses this match up in VST according to the Japanese, and I believe them seeing as how Gian dismantled my Cammy. Down/Back Roundhouse from Dhalsim beat ALL of Cammy’s Jump attacks, even Jump Strong, back in VST.

Jump Strong was the only thing that made Cammy competitive in that fight. I actually think this fight went from Dhalsim’s favor to MORE of Dhalsim’s favor… in other words, it got worse for Cammy in a match up she already lost.

Since I’m the one who pretty much got Sirlin to change this move, I’ll explain why.

It was simply too good.

Sirlin and I disagreed on this heavily, however. He didn’t think it was too good. But I believed it would have broken the game with Vega being the best character without question. The original Fake Wall Dive was simply too powerful.

The way it originally behaved was that Vega would do a little “hop” when you hit Kick in the air, and then you could guide him on the way down. You could make him hop forward, backwards, and while he was falling, you’d still have some form on control on the way down… you could swerve him, essentially. And he fell fast! In other words, you could actually fly TOWARDS the opponent, hit Kick, and then fall AWAY and be safe. In fact, against Gief, you could fly on top of his head, hit Kick when Gief tried a Lariat, hop over the Lariat, land on the ground, and STILL slide him in time before he recovered. Graham Wolfe did that to me allllll day long. I had no idea what to do. Even if I predicted him doing that, I couldn’t punish him for it.

Worse yet, it allowed Vega to hug the back wall 100% of the time, regardless of screen scroll. So in other words, if I did a Wall Dive to the opposite Wall and hit Kick immediately, you could hug the back wall. If you did it to your own wall and the opponent ran forward, you would remain a full screen away 100% of the Fake’s lasting time even though they moved the screen forward. This was free runaway for Vega.

If Gief managed to get close to trapping you in the corner, one Low Strong equaled Buffer into Opposite Wall Dive Fake, which immediately put Vega outside of the corner, and there was 0 ways Gief could punish it because Vega would hug the wall AS the screen scrolled to catch up to Vega. It made it so that Gief could NEVER beat Vega ever again. The fight pretty much went to 9-1, or rather 9.5-0.5. You just basically went off the back wall with Fakes alllll day as Gief approached. When you finally reached the corner, one Low Strong into going off the other wall, repeat. Vega went from being annoying with the Wall Dives to REALLY annoying with the Wall Dives. I’d have preferred the Knock Down Dive to this Fake Wall Dive in a HEARTBEAT.

With this increased power of the Fake Wall Dive, it also became SUPER useful for his Super. He could actually get half way towards you and then hit Kick and bounce away, baiting things like Balrog headbutts and Flash Kicks and Shoto DPs and such and STILL be in range to punish them easily with Slides. So you became fearful of ever trying to counter the Wall Dive with anything. So once he got a Super, that meant he could fly halfway at you and still get away scott-free and not lose his meter at all. Then, the one time you were asleep, he would grab you with the Super. With the Fake Wall Dive, the Super would HAVE to drain when he touched the wall, not when he grabbed you.

When Vega had this Fake Wall Dive, I basically never stopped Wall Diving. There was never a reason to use any other of his moves. From across the screen, whenever he went off the wall, he became a threat to Throw you, fly over your head and Cross you up with a stab, attack from the front with a decent ranged stab for Chip damage, or be 100% safe against 80% of the cast by faking and remaining a screen away instantly charged for another Wall Dive when the fake ended. There was never a reason to NOT be Wall Diving 95% of the time. I won a whole fight against Seth Killian’s Balrog doing 100% Wall Dives. I purposely never did anything else. I have no Vega skills at all and Balrog is one of Seth’s main characters. Yes, Seth wasn’t trying very hard, admittedly… he was messing around mostly, but you could definitely see how that became Vega’s best way to fight Balrog. My Vega should not even come close to taking out Seth’s Balrog.

Again, on paper it doesn’t sound bad. But to me, it was the best move in Street Fighter history outside of Bison’s Psycho Crusher and Scissor Kick in CE. No exaggeration. It changed EVERY ONE of his match ups to this fear when Vega went off the wall. You couldn’t predict what he was gonna do EVER anymore.

Sirlin argued that you could fake the Wall Dive until you were blue in the face, but you weren’t ever actually doing any damage. So who cares how many times you faked? I couldn’t quite prove to him that it was as broken as I saw it, but I think given time the move would have become extremely potent. My lack of Vega skills held me back from really giving him hell in the matches we played where I tried to abuse it, but I can imagine in the hands of someone like Tokido… I dunno, if Tokido saw the move, I keep imagining him giggling like a little schoolgirl with anticipation of how miserable he was gonna make people’s lives.

  • James
431

Dude im with you i and a lot of people think that you did a great job on HDR of course theres people that think you did not but, there lots of people the thought the Capcom did a horriffic job in putting VST together. I being on of them, true i have only been playing ST for like a 7 months befor HDR came out and swith to that in total i have been playing ST/HDR for about 1 year and a half give or take but in that time i know that HDR is way better than VST people are just so use to the character they had that gave them the easy win that they refuse to let them go and, learn new tricks to win with the HDR doppelganger. I for one applaud you SIR. Great Job…

P.S Akuma is still to STRONG…

432

I under stand your point but, its the same thing for all the character BISON vs. HONDA on VST is a super hard match for bison and, smae still goes in HDR DR really does nothing for people jumping in even if you wait till the very end to do it you still lose.

I think HDR was not ment to help TOP character but, to help MID and LOW fight top character a lot eaiser…

433

So it was nerfed on the hunch that it might someday become broken ?
Since you seem to agree that you could not prove it to be broken.

In my experience lariat can always catch you if you do c.mp opposite walldive as you are leaving the ground but i might be wrong on that.

434

Better rekkas and super is nice, but the fact you pretty much get ochio’d for free if you chicken wing kick is pretty gross.

Practical air juggle? A good shoto is going to jump at a Fei, why exactly? I’m sorry but moves you have to use psychic-ly that can land you a juggle are not very practical. At one-two character lengths away, IMO s.hp or c.hp are just better options than throwing out a high risk move you can’t combo off of.

Like Jchensor said, jump strong was ALL she had in this matchup.

435

Well, look at it this way: Vega is already plenty strong. Fake Walldive is definitely not something he needs. Ideally it would help him in some areas that he had problems in before by giving him another option, without removing his weaknesses entirely. If it succeeds, minor bonus. If they estimate wrong, and it winds up being a godly run-away tool and overly abusive tactic, that’s a huge, massive loss, with the character given a tool that is far too good, and by Chen’s assessment, makes Vega the strongest character in the game, bar none, with a game that is even more wall-dive intensive than it already was.

Now assuming the best case/worst case scenario, you’ve got a potential minor benefit versus potential game ruined. In that case, it’s probably better to err on the side of caution and tone it down, since the risk of putting it in outweighs the possible benefits. But even assuming it’s not as dire as the worst case scenario, it would still be extremely strong, and giving Vega more strong tools would elevate him, and go against the philosophy of compressing tiers. In order for it to run smoothly, the end result would have to line up pretty close to the “ideal” situation above. This is all even before we get to Chen’s in-game examples, which sure do make it sound extremely strong.

436

I couldn’t prove it to Sirlin, though apparently he saw enough to be wary of it himself to take it out. Considering all my arguments in the world against the Stored Oicho Throw couldn’t convince him to take that out, he must have saw something to have toned down the Wall Dive fake.

It should be noted that Sirlin DID listen to us. He did, in fact, put in a lot of changes that were suggested by players. Fake Fireball was suggested by Choi. Nerfing Cammy’s Jump Strong was Jason Cole’s idea. Nerfing the Wall Dive Fake was my idea. Etc. etc. It’s unfair to say that Sirlin didn’t listen to anything any of the players said at all.

The reason we all get so riled up about this is that the way Sirlin handled it all, I think, could have been better. I’m sure Sirlin was SUPER stressed, though, so it’s kind of unfair to hold him accountable for all his actions. The position he was in couldn’t have been a very fun one at all. Still, I think he still could have allowed for more of a team effort than he did. If he took our ideas more into consideration even if he was, personally, vehemently against it instead of outright rejecting it, I think it might have gone better.

There were a few times that I had suggestions for Sirlin, and he did the absolute correct thing. One time I suggested a change to him for Boxer, and he told me to go talk to Seth and Omni about it. I went and talked to them, they told me I was an idiot, and I backed off. Then I suggested something else for Guile. He told me to go talk to Choi about it. Choi told me why my idea would hurt Guile. So I backed off.

That probably should have happened more. If two players contradicted each other with changes they wanted, Sirlin shoulda let them duke it out. :slight_smile: If they couldn’t come to a conclusion within a reasonable amount of time, THEN he could force his hand and choose one. I mean, I’m just baffled that when things like Cammy’s Jump Strong is nerfed, I’m not sure why he didn’t ask Jason Cole to talk to me or Creque about it first. It just… happened.

I dunno, maybe Sirlin’s right to listen mostly to Cole and Graham Wolfe and Choi and ignore the likes of players like me. After all, where have I finished in tournaments?

  • James
437

While her jumping strong nerf does help Sim in this match, I honestly think her upgrades to the drill and spinning backfist, along with the easier motions, more than make up for that. It honestly feels like Cammy has the advantage to me in HDR. But, to be fair, I’m pretty awful at this match-up. So who knows, maybe you’re right?

PS: We should play more often!

Interesting story. It definitely sounds scary. I’m glad Sirlin decided to play it safe and take your advice. Like I said before, it’s kind of impressive to me that none of the changes turned out to be super-duper-broken good.

438

Except for Akuma! :arazz:

Not that he really counts anyways.

439

Sirlin, I appreciate all the time and effort you put into Remix. “Thanks!” <-- That’s my official thank you. Overall, the game is pretty good.

With that out of the way, I feel that my complaints are legitimate, and definitely not defamatory. You did take some of our advice, but I know there were several people besides me who were upset because they felt that they weren’t being listened to. This was exacerbated by the fact that we had paid our own way to get to NorCal specifically for the sake of helping out with Remix.

Of course there will be disagreement amongst the players, but I would’ve hoped that you would weigh the advice accordingly. When dealing with Fei Long, if Jumpsuit Jesse and Graham Wolfe disagree on something, I would be more inclined to listen to Jesse. (No offense to Graham.) Or to take a real-life example: Seth, Buk, and myself (three actual Chun players) all said Chun got nerfed too hard. Buk and I specifically said that the new air SBK is going to hurt her badly against fireball characters, because she can’t build meter while jumping over fireballs.

Stuff like that is why I’m salty.

440

I said: “
Which lopsided match ups are now better?..Everything else remained roughly the same”

You said:"You can name only one match in the entire game that is closer than it was? "

you see the problem with that?

For the most part I was talking about hawk yeah but in reality, not much of the matchup chart has changed THAT dramatically. maybe we have different definitions of dramatic but the tiers are almost the exact same as they were.