Nearly 30 moves per character in fact (just check KofXIII wiki), which is more than you use in a Tekken match.
while I can’t speak for everyone, I don’t think people are just saying this for the sake of hating Tekken. I for one enjoy playing the game. And despite it not
being my main FG, I’ve definiely put in a lot of time and money into Tekken (driving to offline sessions, MLG Raleigh, NEC, etc) to compete in it and better myself.But as much as I love Tekken, I also realize that there aren’t enough new faces coming into the game. I know you have to see that too. I’m not saying that the game should cater to everyone (and I sure as hell don’t want Tekken to be easier), but I do think Namco could make some adjustments to the game.
I know there are people who don’t like the idea shortening movesets and the number of playable characters, but without doing that, there’s a lot to take in for someone who is interested in playing Tekken with no prior experience. I came into Tekken during 6.00 arcade / T5DR console, so knowing this, I had a good 4 years to memorize attacks and such. So naturally, going into a new Tekken game is easier. Looking at Tag2 now, there are even more characters, more attacks, more options out of attack strings… So new players not only have to memorize the things we learned 4 years ago, but also the new content that comes along with Tag2 to boot. They don’t even have time to focus on movement, spacing, whiff punishing, etc because they’re too focused on memorizing everything so they don’t lose matches unnecessarily.
While people could say, “that’s their problem if they memorize the strings”… it actually isn’t. It’s everyone’s problem. Previous generations cannot sustain a scene forever. You’re eventually going to need new blood to keep a game thriving.
I don’t know. Never played Marvel of my life, but from what I see of the game, I don’t even expect to be tournament material in 6 months if I start UMVC3 now.
I honestly can’t imagine how some people think they can do this in a f… month with Tekken, unless they considered this game as a scrubby button masher and got a big reality check.
The point you were trying to make was that people are only complaining about Tekken because “it’s Tekken”, since KoF had more characters but no one complained about it. You were trying to imply that Tekken and KoF have similar levels of complexity but people are unfairly targeting Tekken with criticism while KoF gets a free ride. I merely pointed out that your reasoning makes no sense, given that each character in KoF has significantly fewer moves so the game is much less complex as a whole.
Furthermore, you also contradicted the point you were trying to make by pointing out that KoF players are lazy. This implies that you believe lazy people can play KoF but they can’t play Tekken. How can this be if the two games have similar levels of complexity? It can’t, because your original point was wrong.
Brennan wasn’t talking about KoFXIII. He was talking about KoF 98/2002.
Isn’t this what the article was complaining about? The fact that 90% of the moves in Tekken are useless in high level play but players still need to memorize them to avoid getting randomed out?
I don’t even dislike TTT2. I bought it on release day and have been greatly enjoying it since. There are many valid arguments that can be made to defend Tekken, but Brennan’s potshot at KoF is just silly.
You cut down the roster, cut down the movelists in half… suddenly it’s not the same Tekken anymore. (and yes, it is possible to cut all the “fluff” without making such bad decisions as these, like removing 10-hit strings [that no one even likes in the first place]).
If it is the case (I play XIII too, by the way), what’s the big deal?
It’s so hard to learn… moves and proprieties? Seriously… this is getting ridiculous. May be timing consuming, I agree - but it’s not more hard than artificial execution barriers, like 1-frame links.
The game is done - learn it, or drop it. Just don’t whine about it being “hard” or whatever. (It is not easy, for sure - but you guys wanna everything spoonfed, right?)
Yeah, it’s a lot of stuff to grasp - but not impossible to do if you’re really are interested at the game in the first place.
How nice, quoting what I said outside the real context of the subject.
KoF 98/2002 had a big roster as well being demanding at character knowledge and execution. No one complained at the games being the way they were because there was no need to do so. Same with TTT2 now.
Plus, I did not implied anything. People are just being lazy, instead of taking their time to learn the game properly. But if the shoe fits, wear it…
Don’t exaggerate things like that.
Moves and their utility (or lack thereof) are different on a character per character basis. Take Zafina or Lei, for instance - at least half of their movelist are useful on a myriad of different situations.
What is really silly is complaining about the game having too much stuff (just of the hell of it, claiming that everything is too hard), and raging becase of it.
In case you misunderstood me, I totally agree with you here.
I quoted the entire sentence you wrote about KoF. The rest of that post was unrelated.
Nope, you very clearly tried to imply that complaints are being unfairly directed at Tekken because KoF is comparable to Tekken but nobody complained about it. You never even mentioned laziness in your original post. You just added it after the fact because I pointed out how illogical your original argument was.
Even if the arbitrary number I chose (90%) is indeed an exaggeration, the fact remains that people are complaining about superfluous moves in Tekken. I’m not actually making any claim about the veracity of that complaint. Just pointing out that it exists.
So, and what you’re doing right now?
Oh right - still whining for the sake of whining, instead of bringing relevant arguments to bring your “points”.
My point still stands. People are lazy.
~
Regarding movelists and all… Let’s just take a look, for example, at Dr. B’s movelist (awesome character by the way):
[media=youtube]ZOWueXVvUIU[/media]
“Oh! The Command List lists 91 moves! OMFGBBQ TOO MUCH!!111!”
But if you take a look on the movelist itself, you’ll see that Dr. B only have 71 different moves. On 72 onwards, you have… 2 Taunts, his 10-hit string (which is godawful), his throws, a punch parry and sample juggles.
Plus, there aren’t even 71 different moves per se - some of them are slight variations on some strings and different followups of the same. Not too much difficult if you take your time to learn the basics of any character.
Dr. B even have four different stances himself, so chances are that good part of the movelist will find good use in high-level play.
Characters with really big movelists are the exception to the rule, not the “rule” itself.
"But 71… is still too much!1!1"
I’d rather have a full fledged-out roster than… what SCV done to Ivy and Voldo.
What points? The one where I call out that your pot-shot at KOF makes no sense? I’m pretty sure I’ve proven it decisively already. Nothing you’ve said disproves it. That’s the only reason you’re talking about laziness. To save face. I don’t even care about your claim that people are lazy. If you think people are lazy because they want to devote less time to video games than you, that’s cool with me. But your KoF comment was wrong. At this point you can admit your mistake and move on, or you can keep embarrassing yourself by trying to save the subject.
No need to going personal here.
And you answered your own stuff right now:
If someone don’t wanna* invest some time* to learn Tekken (or any FG for the matter), then said person don’t have any right to trash the series for being “difficult” and whatever. No pain, no gain.
So we’re cool.
So here we are, once again, arguing points rather than the argument.
I hate when debates become mud fights.
Ukyo, for the sake of keeping this on topic, can you retort/reply to Bren’s part about Dr.B and how most Tekken Char. moves are just slight variations and something you will have muscle memorized by the end of the day?
I have a great Tekken players at my locals, one is a fucking walking Tekken encyclopedia, and he’s an awesome asset, the best, though, don’t even remember the notations for their combos, but their not mashing buttons, they do it everytime.
Tekken 4 DID flop. Arcades everywhere in the US are high about tekken with TTT1. People expected T4 will be a success. So people bought MANY high priced arcade cabs for T4, but because THERE’S LESS CHARACTERS, BROKEN JIN, AND LESSER THINGS TO EXPLORE, THERE’S NO REASON TO PLAY THE GAME REPEATEDLY. Arcades died because of T4, and you won’t complain about tekken being too hard if you still have a arcade scene around you.
No sir. You’re a xiaoyu player, you got AOP, you have no right to say things about movement 
Backdash and sidesteps are nerfed considerably in T6. Other players who rely on basic movement and whiff punishing not only have a hard time, they are outmatched by characters who have easier execution requirement (Bob vs. Bob EVO Anyone?). And the game became dominated by crush moves (hopkicks) remember? Mishimas, which are high-execution characters, are B-tiers, and the top tiers are too easy to use, why pick mishimas? Hey, everyone who complained about the game being too hard should supported T6 at least… But hey…
Yes but, any talk of removing or simplifying *anything *in any game is branded as dumbing down. All games should just gain more characters, more moves, more mechanics, more whatever. Some people are just completely incapable of understanding how streamlining or simplifying areas of a game can be beneficial. It just does not compute.
Ironic really considering how praised ST is when, by their definition it is a ‘dumb game’.
I don’t actually disagree with this point. In fact I don’t think people should be trashing any fighting games. It’s unproductive, which is why I always call it out when it’s done in an erroneous context like KoF here. If you have a point to make about Tekken, make the point without resorting to illogical comments about other games.
I think we pretty much agree on the broader points of the argument here. The only thing we disagree on is that I believe players can make an objective decision not to play Tekken because of the learning curve, and there’s no need to trash those people for being lazy. I’ve played Tekken for more than ten years, so I can pick up TTT2 and have fun with it right away. But I can understand when another person says:
That’s a perfectly valid viewpoint, IMO. That person is not trashing Tekken at all. That person is just making an objective assessment of the effort/reward on the game and making a decision that is logical for him. At the same time, I think this is also a valid point:
Again, a valid viewpoint. No need for anyone to trash anyone else. Some people don’t want to play Tekken. The Tekken community also doesn’t want them to play Tekken. Everyone seems to be in agreement here, so really there’s no problem at all.
Edit:
Here’s an analogy: I’m a Xiaoyu player and it took a lot of time and effort to learn her, but if someone else tries Xiaoyu out and later drops her for Paul I don’t get the right to call that person lazy. We just made different choices, both valid.
My understanding of the issue is that people have no problem memorizing the movelists of their own characters. At least among my friends I tried to get into Tekken, when they quit it’s not because they can’t learn their own movelists. It’s because they also have to learn everyone else’s movelist to avoid eating random gimmicky strings all day.
Let’s say TTT2 has 55 chars and each char has just 50 moves (we’ll lowball it). Maybe ten of those are useful, giving us 550 useful moves for all the characters in the game you have to learn. I haven’t personally heard any complaints about that. The complaints lie in the 2200 other moves you have to learn to avoid getting randomed out.
It’s not neccessary for them to look at ALL the moves of every character. First, a character have at least one:
- Hopkick
- df+2 Uppercut
- df+2 CH launcher/Homing
- b+1 CH launcher
- Crouchdash Launcher
- WS launcher
- SS stuff
That’s it. Most of the time, that’s the moves you’re looking for. If you look at it, when you know how to deal with Steve’s b+1 (by not being aggressive or doing high crushes), you can deal with King’s b+1 too. And it’s really easy to figure out which player’s favorites are.
The one skill that’s so underrated in Tekken is the ability to adapt in-game. Many things that seemed “new” can be similar to what you encounter before. Pro Tekken players constantly win despite not knowing everything because of that. It also helps when you just have one round scouting your opponent and finding what he/she likes to do. Spacing GREATLY helps too… It won’t matter if your opponent can throw every move in the game if it won’t hit you. Even the smallest whiffs can cause big damage.
As much as I’d prefer the game to stay the way it is (albeit with a bit more info floating around), I’m going to have to say you’re looking at it the wrong way there.
There are a more limited set of good moves which you can look out for this is true, but it’s the moves which are bad because they are really unsafe/duckable at x point/steppable at x point/parryable at x point yet do a hell of a lot of damage or just last forever which catch the newer players out.
As I said, I’d prefer the series to stay as it is, but just needed to set the misunderstanding there straight, it’s not that people are jumping straight in and getting pasted by frame perfect poking or turling games, they are getting pasted by the stuff you probably learned so long ago you my have almost forgotten you had to learn it…
Cmon now bro, that’s the point of learning to adapt. You can get afford to get hit by random stuff once. It’s a 5 round game. If you get hit by that, you’re gonna notice holes on it, and it’s pretty easy to see visually. If you get hit by the same thing again, YOU HAVE A PROBLEM.
Second again, it’s going to go back at movement and spacing, you’ll never gonna get randomed out if you space properly and you know how to block. If you’re too aggressive, yes you gonna eat alot of things. But as long as you can block and space, you won’t have even a problem.
As I said before, I don’t have a problem with the game as it is and am learning to do that, I was just correcting your misunderstanding of what newer players were having trouble with.
And if you make a game smarter you lose the people who like stupid games. What’s your point? You can’t please everyone, and I’d rather care about my own interests, not about ones who are downright opposites to them!
People forget that… the more you play (against a good variety of characters, no less), the more you’ll learn about the roster as well. You don’t even need to memorize all the moves of said character - just practice the match-up and everything will be part of your game in no time. IE; my BFF plays Hwoarang - just by playing with him a lot I learned the ins and outs about the character without too much hassle.
Steve was a pain in the ass when I was learning the game, and as much I hate him, I had to take a look on his movelist to know how to react and avoid a lot of stuff I was eating for free. Was the most boring and painful thing I ever done into Tekken, but I had to do it - otherwise, I’d still be hopeless against Steve players nowadays.
Not to much different than other games where you have to know a little bit of match-up knowledge.
You still have 5 rounds to adapt, and most of the “useless” moves are “useless” for a ‘reason’ - ie, they are not gamebreaking, neither make the characters godlike or anything. People are just exaggerating things.
You forgot “Magic 4” and “Low Sweeps” (and anything abusable with lag).