I’ve previously had an idea for a gameplay mechanic in which every character has a large pool of special moves, from which you can choose either a specific number to use for each fight, or perhaps have a certain number of points and have different moves be worth different #s of points. Would introduce an interesting metagame element, I think.
BRILLIANT polarity and for some reason, such an idea would work best in 2D fighters where special moves matter more than in 3D fighters. Your idea would be like taking the alternative super art in SF3 and applying it to all moves.
Each character would have a pool of at least 6 or 7 moves and they can pick 4-5 of them. Although wouldn’t it be a hassle to do that before every match? Unless a player can pick from a pre-made combination of moves, instead of selecting his move list individually.
Parry meter wouldn’t be that good. Take the evo 2004 daigo/wong fight for example. Say daigo parried a few things during the round, sbk, fireball, jump in, w/e. And then with no life, he begins the parry. Crowd begins to go wild, and then he jumps up for the ultra air parry imgonnacomedownandbeatyoass…and realizes he has no meter left because he just got done parrying 14 hits. How would the parry meter work? Make it bigger depending on the character? Give Daigo 20 hits to parry? Now he has 20 to work with, say wong throws out low forward, daigo parries and low forward xx super. Wake up, daigo backs up, wong pokes with strong, daigo parries, mp, hp xx super. Then just finishes him later. He only really needed 2. It’d just be a waste.
Having individual character “grooves” is bacially just the same as having different characters with no set super system or a bunch of consistent engine aspects (parry air guard, pushblock etc). It’s not a bad idea, but the first thing I think of is CFE, so I’m a bit biased…
Polarity: A3 sorta did that, and I think Samurai Showdown 3 and on with the Slash/Bust stuff. A3 changed a couple aspects between ISMs…V-ISM Vega has the flipkick, but A/X-ISM don’t, X-Chun li doesn’t have a fireball or the rising kick attack, V-Dan and V-Juni can pushblock, etc. If you play A-ISM Honda and then try X-ISM, you’ll notice a bunch of moves are different, though just the regular moves and the supers. Stuff is obviously fixed, though…you can’t give X-Ryu the hopkick or V-Chun the palm thrust move, etc…
Two ideas: I was thinking of 3D fighting games a long time ago, and I thought of something sorta like Hellhound’s, but in a Virtua Fighter-type setting. Like, you have attacks with right and left limbs (picture Tekken setup since it’s more clear), and if you get hit in a certain limb with enough force, that attack comes out slower, or maybe not at all. Maybe if you need your left leg to stand on to kick with your right, but the left is injured, you need to modify your attack (kick becomes a knee thrust) or it comes out slower to keep your footing (this might change movement speed, also). Like the Fighting Vipers armor system, only applied to offense insted of defense (FV armor-breaking system was interesting…). Or, you can power through it, and take some damage for excecuting the move in the normal way. Like, what Hellhound was talking about…if Ken got hit with the move that disabled his hand, he could still do a fierce DP, but would take like 15% damage to his own health, or something, making the player decide whether or not it was worth it.
My idea for a game with no supers comes from wanting to whittle things down back to basics and (maybe) start over. There’s an old saying that goes “the more words you use, the further away you get from what you were originally trying to say.” If it’s your character vs my character, me and my moves, you and yours…there’s a bunch of stuff that can dillute that. Adding more stuff isn’t always good. I’d like to see focus on a game’s fundamental aspects (ie. the actual attacks), more than random gimmicks that are added in so some players won’t complain (see: SFA2 Alpha Counters), or something new for it’s own sake (see: A1 chain attacks). The act of pushing someone around and forcing their actions is a bit more pure in the older games, even if it’s harder to see. I’d rather see a T.Hawk player beat a Dhalsim player because he worked his way in and stayed close, rather than because he guessed right and parried twice. I’d rather see a Honda player beat a Ken player because he had patience and made the other guy make a mistake, not because he can hit two buttons and roll through Ken’s fireballs.
Not to say that there shouldn’t be invulnerable moves, or ones with crazy priority, which are obviously really good…these things disapearing has been a bad thing for SF, and allows for things like pre-RC CvS2, where the attacks that ARE too good, are retarded. Things like throws and shoto DP, etc have gotten weaker and weaker, while more options have been added, and not always to the benefit of the games.
To say that a game should be stripped to it’s bare elements sounds harsh, but I think a lot of stuff is just added for the sake of it being there. Being able to do 20% damage while blocking (see SFA2) is a crutch. Throws doing no damage and giving people a wide window to counter them (see: some KOF games) is a crutch. HF, ST and ther other old games have their share of OG crutches…high damage balances gameplay in one sense, but can also reward luck. And, on the one hand, crossup into TOD is unfair, but being able to delay standing up with no penalty or being able to jump out of crossups, etc is also bad, since instead of not paying for your mistake (and learning from it), you scrub out and avoid it. On the one hand, Ryu’s DP being completely invincible is unfair, but on the other hand, you now have an absolute…stupid guessing games are gone, and you now have to consider more how you play…“if Ryu has a fireball that I can jump over, but a DP that can hit me out of all of my jumping attacks…” is a much more interesting line of thought than “how can I out-bullshit him” via parry, CC activation, high-priority jumping attack, etc.
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Conversely, my favorite game is SFA3, which is moderately complex and has a fair amount of BS, so… But at least the BS has a good balance between offense and defense…for example, offensive moves (a good example would be many jumping attacks) have a good amount of pritority, and the guard meter will very often come into play, rewarding momentum. Defensive moves are also good (Shoryuken, universal c.SP, supers, VCs etc), and can lead into good damage. If you want to shift momentum immediately or get out of a jam that you’ve let yourself be put into, you can use an AC in A or V-ISM, but it will cost you a chunk of your guard meter, and some super gauge, also…and will do little damage. Stopping the rushdown is it’s own reward, for the most part. The juggle system keeps the action going, and while it does allow certain things to be escapd (ie anti-air special into crossup into combo), you can still be punished for using the air recovery or ground recovery in a stupid way (or not using it). Throws are weaker than in old games, but the universal air throw works really well, etc. A couple things should have been changed…Honda suffers because his defense isn’t quite strong enough due to the nature of the game (he needs a freakishly strong AC, or HHS shoudl do insane guard damage or X-Honda should be able to store his super, or SOMETHING), Dhalsim ia bit too good (quick fix would be to make him do less guard damage with his far normal atacks or not let s.RK Major Counter…or do the opposite and let him keep his offens at far range, but weaken his buff-ass defense up close), Chun Li and Zangief and V-Sakura are a little too good, but at least CL falls to second/mid-tier when V-ISM pops up… But A3 is an example of a game with a whole bunch of crap in it, that generally works out well.
I’m also a big fan of the wide variety of normal moves…being able to choose between far and long-range normals at will in V-ISM…this is something Dhalsim has been able to do since ST, and while sometimes it gets out of hand (V-Sak, and…uh…V-Sak in her alternate color), it’s really cool, and gives characters many more options…sometimes. Sometimes it hurts (ie. Charlie can’t do his spinning backfist standing FP while charging anymore in V-ISM, cetain combos get harder, etc. I was actually thinking of a system with only normal moves/throws, but that, I think would really be a step in the wrong direction (though interesting).
How do you guys feel about “meaty” attacks? Attacks that you stick out while youre opponent is standing up or otherwise recovering, which are very hard, or sometimes impossible to reverse…? A3 doesn’t really have many of these, because the timing window for reversals is pretty wide (In my few times playing CvS2 or even 3S, I’m always amused by my complete inability to get out reversal DP/super to something I know is coming). I assume it’s because of the guard meter system…good thing? Should you have the advantage of a really good meaty attack because you knocked someone down, or shold you have to be wary? Should meaty attacks be completely irreversible, even? A penatly for being grounded, even in games with guard meter?
What do you guys think of throws, also? OG throwsi for more damage and more range, or only super-close-range throws? Should they be low-damage overall (or, rather, remain that way)?
Guard meter, good or bad? I think a game like CvS2 desperately needs it, but I think it would be pretty much worthless in 3S (then again, I don’t play 3S much). What about the visible stun gauge like in the SF3 games?
Dashing, running or neither? Should you be able to attack out of one, or should there be recovery time? I like the idea of different footspeed for different characters, it’s a nice addition to variety.
Edit: quick note about parry: Counter moves (ie. Akira in VF, Geese, Karin, Dudley, etc) aren’t bad, but the couner is generally concrete. Parry-> anything can get ugly in some cases, for obvious reasons, especially considering that counters can miss (take as much time as a whiffed throw animation, generally, if not more). So how about something in between: parry with recovery time (let’s say you can still option-selct tech. throws somehow), but a shorter one…let’s say shoto c.SP length. I don’t think this would be a popular idea…
Random note, I was reading the most recent issue of Hardcore Gamer, and the DOA4 system sounds interesting…coming from a Street Fighter background, stopping a combo midway through being hit by it sounds retarded (c-c-c-c-combo breaaakkerrr!!), but, at least from what I’ve read, it sounds like they are doing something inetersting with the idea of countering mid-combo (you still can’t stop a juggle once you’ve been launched, however, which is good IMO).
Anohter post, randomly.
What do you guys thing of wrestling games? I’ve played very few (a lot seem masher-friendly, though I haven’t played any made in the last 10 years so…), and I think what they need are specific special moves, sort of a step toward fighting games.
Like, you have a stamina bar, and this determines your ability to counter. Like if someone is trying to hit you with a pile driver, and you try to go into a back bodydrop, that takes a certain amount. Or the more complex counters…say, powerbomb into DDT…only available with certain characters, and requires a specific motion (let’s say d, d+p) witin a certain timeframe. The better counters require tighter timing and take a bit more of the stamina guage (possibly unrealated to the health gauge (which wrestling games neeed more of, btw) until you run out), but do more damage. Getting crowd reaction gives you some kind of energy (be it boos for the heel characters or cheers for the god guys), but I’m sure that idea has been done already.
The reversals to the reversals would be interesting. You’d have to allow them, right? They also would have to take some amount of stamina to do, and require knowing the timing on the counter a bit, or even a specific motion…u, u+p to counter a DDT attempt of your powerbomb, d, d+k to lock someone up to was trying to escape. You could lower the damage to someone who was trying to option selct, so they do the move with less accuracy because they were worried about a counter. Also, the ropes should come into play at some point…in American pro wrestling (I assume Canadian, too) if you get the ropes they have to break whatever hold they have, ditto the corner. If you get locked up, you can try to make a run for the ropes, but of course you can be tripped, which is bad news. Of course the guy who tried to trip you up couldn’t keep the hold on too well if you weren’t trying to run, or stopped suddenly, etc.
For submission moves, power struggles etc, I’m trying to think of a way you would avoid mashing buttons…the only thing I could really come up with would be a Shenmue-type QTE button input system, where you would have to press whatever button/direction came up on the screen ASAP to break/maintain a good submission.
Just some thoughts.
Whoa that was alot to read in one post.
I find that idea of damaging the foot so he can no longer kick and so ends up doing a knee thing. Although I think the player would need to back up and press all the buttons to see the animation on which attacks got recently weaker.
So that got me thinking. With my idea of body strain where it only affects super moves (like fireball, huricane kicks, dragon uppercut, ect…) each time the injured opponent does a super move you would see a comical annimated reaction which should tell the player don’t do that move until the time bar at the bottom expires to tell you that you can do that specific super move again.
“No blocking”:
Implementation details rule the day. Literally.
For instance, the most extreme and “sloppiest” gameplay-wise way to do it would be basically what you see in stuff like “Rag Doll Kung Fu”; just rag dolls, with some buttons that will cause them to impel such and such parts in such and such direction. The gameplay would be a mess.
A “more traditional” approach can be taken from a couple of angles. Games like Asuka 120%, Queen of Heart and GG all incorporate a “clashing” system, with Asuka’s being the loosest (EVERYTHING clashes, and dashing forward autoguards projectiles) and GG’s being the strictest (hard-set list of clash/not-clash by assigning a numeric priority value to each attack). Glove on Fight had NO BLOCKING, and you had dodge high and dodge low (some had parry), and it was basically a poking/counter-poking game, with some pokes going under some, some going over some, etc; basically just hitboxing.
So it’s possible to be done in a way that actually does NOT require any real physics modelling. The question is, what results in the best feel for the game.
From a 3D perspective, the games made by Sandlot are crazy. They are about giant robots. The robots and their interactions with each and their interactions with the surroundings are physically modelled. When they hit each other, physics are at work rather than only pre-defined “reeling” animations. It makes a difference. Whether or not such a feel would work in a competitive 2D game can only be answered by making it and testing it. It might feel too sloppy to be workable, it might be amazing, or it might just not make that big of a difference.
I think that the single biggest fundamental understanding which has been achieved from the beginnings of SF2 is that FRAME DATA MATTERS. This is right near the bottom level nitty gritty implementation, but we’ve seen how big of a difference it can make in any fighting game, 2D or 3D. A truly good fighting game is going to have to pay attention to the game at this level of detail in order for it to be a competition-level success.
Interesting characters is an issue. The Guilty Gear games kept demonstrating that brand new, interesting characters COULD be made, no matter how hellishly difficult it may have been to make them. You could have characters that have extremely non-traditional gameplay theming, like Venom’s billiard ball projectile interaction, Faust’s randomness (!), or Eddie’s button-hold/button-release method of controlling two characters at once. The problem is, coming up with good and interesting creative characters is HARD. Fact is, for better or for worse we are victims of our experience with fighting games; we have a intuitive-level familiarity with fighting game elements. We will think in terms of dragon punches and fireballs and pokes and teleports and overheads.
Nintendo is actually an amazing pioneer, simply by making Smash Bros.: a game that is both good and doesn’t play just like Street Fighter. Just think about how damage is modelled in the game; you don’t simply “die” when some number is reached, instead, each hit is like how much your mass is reduced so that the next time you are pushed, you fly further. The idea of “high/low/crossup blocking” is gone, since blocking is an all-around shield. etc. etc.
Not learning from what has and has not worked in 3D fighting games would be a mistake.
Another idea is:
Someone mentioned before that corners can be advantagous. And someone thought of a stage where it flows as a circle with no corners.
How about every once and a while some force field or falling block appears which would create a corner.
That way the 360 circle stage can be done with random corners appearing.
2D fighting games dont need gimmicks, and alot of them are “been-there-done-that-played-out” as this thread proves. the real challenge is making a fun game engine that is open to creative interpretations, without having major game breaking exploits and/or balance issues.
art/graphics/special effects: its the first thing you notice with a 2D fighter is the art. how initially attactive a game can be is important, in addition to the hours upon hours people will spend looking at the game if it does become popular. I love playing SS:tenkaichi, but the fact that the background sprites are higher res than the playable characters is completely ridiculous. I heard a friend of mine say that it looked like SNES graphics. Capcom does a phenominal job with this issue. In keeping up with 2D technology, there is a certain level of satisfaction a Shinshoryuken gives that a SNKP super of “string-along-a-bunch-o-moves” cant compete with.
characters: there is a math postulate that says “if any two real numbers are different, then one must be greater than the other”. Character balance is a huge problem(Mishimas anyone?) that will forever plague fighting games in general. the smallest changes in frame data means the difference in top tier to complete garbage. next to bug fixing this has to be the biggest thing when play testing a fighting game. Sammy has been doing a great job of this, creating new fresh characters while avoiding clones and overpowered moves. SNKP does make its fair share of clone characters, and fall victim to tiers, but they have the most amount of character personality which keeps them interesting. And while i like Capcom characters, they get more make overs than a reality show.
game engine: certain rules need to be in place for new comers and beginners of a 2D fighting game. Back = block, high/low defence rules, blocking/throwing mixup and dashing. Other than that character custimization is a huge deal, its the present and near future of 2D fighting games. Players pick grooves, styles, teams, accessories in most games except for GGXX. I will say SC3’s CAS is crap especially since there is no SC3 arcade machine to play them on. combos/cancels/juggles/supers are all products of tweaking and play testing. its so hard to say what will be fun or what will work without it right in front of you on a dev machine.
these previous topics are what make a 2D fighter “fun”. but to make one that is competitive, you need to focus on strategies, movement analysis, risk/rewards, setups, resource management and damage scaling. im sure all the fighting game designers for the major game developers know this.
I think a 2D fighting game where you can speed up your descent when jumping by holding down would be nice.
I also think a fighting game with all the features of Dual Blades would be excellent as well.
I have some ideas for an old skool SF2 clone.
I am making a design where your offensive and defensive stats are attached to your super bar. When your super bar is full, you can do full damage, resist dizzy attempts, and take less damage overall. When your bar is lower (such as when you use your super, custom, desperation, or when it is forced down) you find that you can be dizzied easier and that your stun time when getting hit increases. Charging super bar will only be possible with combination attacks with a few exceptions taken on a case by case basis.
I want my game to have chain combos, but I want the chains to be done only after a counterhit. Also counterhits will have a different hit spark and cause longer stun, but it will be very quick so reflexes (or dumb luck) will be needed to get the chains. Since the chains are combos, and you need combos to charge super, you begin to see where this is going.
Making the game with 3D graphics is required if a 2D game is to make any noise in the industry. People nowadays are too used to easy control, pretty graphics, and deep gameplay. SF style games automatically lose on the control issue as learning special motions requires time and energy. While a game with beautifully rendered 2D graphics would make me happy, I fear that a 2D fighter without 3D graphics would just get ignored by all but the most hardcore players. I know most people on the boards would say that they want 2D everything in their new fighter, but consider the possibilities.
You can make one model for an area, and simply change the camera angle to make variations on the stage. Stage 1 is the mall hallway, but next game its in the food court, etc. Also 3D models can be animated easier, want to choose moves from a huge list, or how about custom looks and colors and such. 3D games can up the environment involvement. The crowd watches and the heads follow the players as they move around. The camera can be zoomed out as far as it can, or it can come in close so when you get Ryo doing his super (the one where he rushes in and pummels the opponent with dozens of hits), the camera can come in, circle around the players, and reset back to default when the super is finished. Terry does a Power Geyser and it causes the stage to change. Cars flip over, girls hold down their skirts, cats get flung around the screen. It doesnt have to actually interfere with the gameplay to make a huge difference in the presentation.
@Urkang
All your ideas are an excellent addition to the thread, especially the one about the super bar. Keep it up. 
No blocking has already been done.
For some insanely stupid reason the name evades me, but it’s that Square fighting game with samurais and fully 3D environments. There also was a sequel, which was a bit tighter…
Bushido Blade perhaps…
I have a question…
With 3D cel-shading technology, can we mimic 2D graphics down to every detail such as facial expressions? Can 3D cel-shading technology truly replace 2D graphics like those we see in Guilty Gear and SF3? (I’m talking mostly in terms of appearance and aesthetics)
I dunno about replace but it would be a nice addition.
No offense, but the current games rely too much on meter building as it is. It sounds like you have a safety whereby the offensive guy gets the meter… but this could come back and bite you in the ass.
The character with the best rushdown/blockstrings will be tops easy. I think the tiers would be huge in difference, with those who have good moves to get in and lay down pressure automatically being crazy good. Way too good even. From the sounds of it, you want attacking and action, but it also sounds like you are rewarding them TOO much for it. Zoning or defensive characters would automatically be at a disadvantage. Imagine if magneto was in the game…
Now, I know that you can tweak it, and after revisions possible fix everything in theory… I’m just looking at the surface here.
@Darkside
Well yes there are many advantages to 3D Cel-shading technology however, I’m talking purely aesthetics. There is something very special and dare I say, TIMELESS about 2D hand-drawn graphics. SF3 in my eyes will never look outdated, because it’s art in a way. I’m asking if cel-shading graphics can look as “2D hand-drawn graphicy” as possible.
@Best Kind Boxer
But it presents an interesting mind game, do I risk my character’s life (literally) and perform a super which could kill my opponent, or do I stay put and take advantage of the bonuses of having a full gauge? Add the fact that there is a variety of options that take away from your super bar such as parrying which would also present an obstacle, a choice.
From a realism standpoint it does make sense. If your character is strong enough to perform a massive super move with a full super bar, wouldn’t it also be logical to assume that your character is also overall stronger as well at the time of a full bar?
It could be made so that every character gains different capabilities at a full bar as well. A defensive character would become a BETTER defensive character for example at full bar. An aerial character like Vega for example, would be able to jump higher or be faster.
This does present a lot of variables to balance but if done properly, the resulting game would be so. Fucking. GOOD!
Sorry, I forgot the other part of the idea. There is one more bar. It is basically a fatigue bar that fills when you do moves or are blocking. All moves in the game add to this bar with equal increments. So fast moves (say jabs) would increase the bar quickly while slower moves (specials and supers) would increase the bar much less. The rate this bar would increase would also be affected by the super bar as the more power you have, the smaller the amount this bar would receive. If the bar is full when you are hit, it would result in either a guard crush or a stun hit (basically the same thing).
There wouldn’t be a whole lot of stat tracking for the player because there would only be three bars.
Also Boxer I understand your POV on the offensive stacking of the super bar stats. But one thing you must remember about this idea is that it is a clone of SF2. There are no dashes or run ins in this design (except one character specific one). Also, projectile zones are covered, I wouldn’t dare attempt a clone of SF2 without the zones. I always believed that characters should have special attacks to stop projectiles. I am not a fan of the fix all solutions in later Capcom games (ie parry).
Daemos, I think you are right on the money. Super spamming is one thing I don’t want to have. Adding abilities to a full bar sounds really interesting as well. And of course this goes back to the old risk versus reward discussions from ages past.
And if you are wondering about customs, yes I would put them in the game, but to use them you have to fully sac your super bar for the match, as well as all the enhancements (EX specials, extra abilities like rolls or whatever) that go with it.
ok, so… I’m getting a headache haha.
Sounds crazy complicated, even more so than GG.
But I’ll be the first one to play it! :looney: