Questions about the corner/knockdown game

Classic Fighting Games Capcom VS SNK 2
1

I have been playing CvS2 on and off for a few years now but only lately have I started to care enough to become better then your average roll super arcade scrub. So because of wanting to get better, I really need to figure out how to control space and how to control the corner, especially after knockdowns.

Right now I’m playing K-Groove w/ Joe/Cammy/Sagat(2) and I’m working on my execution (mainly cancels and hit confirms) but I really I need something explained to me.

I’ll put out a number of scenarios that I don’t understand with the hope that somebody can fill me in on the exact details.

Scenario 1:
I play Joe who has nothing but ground game and have issues with keeping pressure on my cornered opponent. When can I use TnT punches to pressure and when is it safe/not safe? An example is can I TNT(hp) while my opponent is getting up or will that lead to me getting DP’d? Also, can somebody explain tick throws exactly?

I know what a tick throw is (landing a frame advantage normal that allows you to throw after) but I don’t know when to use them. Do you wait for after they get up and isn’t it a bit risky to throw in a normal against somebody with a DP that has invincibility startup?

Scenario 2:
How do you utilize meaty normals and does the frame guidebook tell you which normals are meaty? Can you throw a meaty when somebody is getting up and will it be safe or can you get hit by a level 2/DP/RC?

Scenario 3:
Running and how to make the most of it is something that I don’t have a grasp over either. I know you can’t JD/block while running and that normals can cancel your run. My lack of understanding involves running c.lp’s. Do you get enough frame advantage from landing a blocked jab to be able to run and chain another c.lp without being counter-poked or dp’d? Or is that dependent on how much frame advantage your jabs give?

Scenario 4:
I don’t understand the mechanics of jumping in terms of recovery when you land. If I have somebody corned and they whiff a j.hk after jumping straight up, how long do I have to punish them once they land?

Scenario 5:
I haven’t fully figured out how to punish the roll or to defend against the stupid roll super either. I know you can throw people out of rolls, which I do, but how soon can you roll after getting up? Can you straight up roll after recovering from a knockdown?

I know one reason I am getting punished by roll supers is I use specials that have enough recovery that makes them unsafe which I’m trying to fix. Hence, I never throw tigers or hurricanes unless I’m sure they can’t punish them. However, I also try to punish rolls by mashing on c.lp/lk which I seem to have read is a mistake. Is it a bad idea to punish rolls with jabs and shorts? Should I instead be relying on crouching meaty normals?

Another question I have doesn’t quite relate to corner/knockdown/recovery and instead involves super/special cancels. I know Joe can do c.lk,lp,c.lk to Hurricane upper and Sagat can do lp,lp to Hotfoot/DP. However, I’m a bit lost in terms of how to cancel or link to the super. They are cancels right? Is there a trick to the buffering that I don’t understand?

The way I have it figured is you hit the normals and then as soon as you hit the last c.lk you hold that button and then input the super command. Is there a shortcut to this method?

Can you do d.lk, qcf+lp, d.lk, qcf+p instead of just doing d.lk, lp, d.lk + hold lk, qcf x 2 + P? Are there any shortcuts for buffering that I haven’t figured out for sagat as well? Like is there an easy method to execute c.lk x 2, tiger uppercut? Should I be doing it c.lk, joystick to forward, c.lk, df+P?

One last question. When in training mode and practicing combos, will the combo meter always tell you if a combo works and when there are gaps? Or do some combos create enough reel so that the combo meter will not register it as a combo? Example: Pretend hotfoot hits for 8 hits. Will c.lk, c.lk register as 10 hit combo every time? If it registers as only 8, does that mean that the combo is broken and they can block before the super comes out? Do breaks in the combo meter always mean you effed up your execution?

I asked a shit-load of questions so I understand if I won’t get any detailed responses but anything is better then nothing. I actually want to get good enough @ CvS2 to attend EVO this year and not get completely stomped by everybody. Thanks.

2

You’ll get DPed if you do his tnt punches as they’re waking up. I dont think they’re too good in K groove but in roll grooves, RC TNT punches are great cause of baku cancel.

A tick throw is pretty much hitting someone with like say a c.lk and then walk up throw instead of going into a block string. Not necessarily a frame advantage normal. Not really because thats where mind games come in. If they dp and you dont try to tick throw or meaty them, then they get a huge punisher combo.

They’re generally moves that have a lot of active hit frames (kyo’s close st.mp instantly comes to mind). You do them as they’re getting up so that they get hit (or they block) the move as its active frames are almost done. This isnt 3s so no, meatys dont beat reversal timed uppercuts/invincible moves. They’re used to mess up the opponents timing.

There are holes in running c.jabs. They are hard to exploit but they are there.

I forget the number of trip guard frames.

React sooner. Stick out a meatier attack. You arent invincible immediately after rolls. You can hit them as they come out if it.

Nothing you can do about rolling through a laggy move / normal and getting punished. Dont mash on c.lp/lk as they are rolling. They have low active hit frames and they will likely whiff as they are coming out of the roll. Punish rolls as much as you can, just not with jabs.

yes

3

This isnt necessarily true… you have to watch for your combo meter to reset… ie if you do some supers from far away you get less hits, so measuring it point blank and then measureing it on a cancel from 2 c.lks is not the same. Also, measuring it from a distance of 2 c.lks WITHOUT the cancel is not the same either. In most cases this does not matter but there are definitely cases where it does.

if you’re talking about sagat’s tiger raidsuper, the first hit can wiff (the part where he hits low), but the rest can hit i believe…

4

I thought that it was obvious that different distances on multi hit supers (like tiger raid) would produce different hit counts was obvious.

5

If you’re playing against someone who likes to do wake-up DP all the time, walk up to him, block for a moment. If he did a DP you get a free combo, if he didn’t you can still throw him. If he starts mashing throw on wake-up, you can try walking up to him and blocking (while staying out of throw range) then punishing his throw attempt.
Usually I try to discourage people from throwing out random shit on wake-up before I start throw mix-ups (using meaties, RC moves, etc).

Look for situations where you can use run to punish whiffs and/or blocked laggy moves (eg: you’re playing Cammy, they whiff something you run s.HP/s.HK.c.MK xx lvl 3 Super).

I’ve heard things about Geese being able to link running low jabs (or maybe walking jabs, I can’t remember) but I’ve never tried it. You’ll have to ask a Geese player about that.

If you time running jabs right it’s unlikely the other guy will be able to counter-hit you, and DPing between running jabs is something risky and hard to do consistently IMO.

From Buktooth’s system guide:

“Normal jumps have a 2-frame recovery.
Low jumps have a 8-frame recovery. Recovery can be canceled anytime after the first 2 frames with a special/super.”

Sagat’s s.LP, s.LP -> link
Sagat’s s.LP xx DP/Super -> cancel

You should learn Sagat’s c.LK, c.LK xx DP/Super as well. Hotfoot Super (any level) always combos off low shorts, even from maximum distance.
Not really much to say about execution in here; keep practicing, try doing the motion for the special/super faster, turn on the key display to make sure your inputs are correct.
BTW, Sagat can link s.LP into HP DP as well.

If you do that w/ Sagat you’ll probably end up getting a Tiger Shot. Using that method for comboing into Hotfoot Super works, though. In my case, I find it easier to verify the combo by doing the full super input after doing the 2 low shorts.

If there’s a gap between the normal move and the super the combo meter will show it.
There some cases where the first couple of hits of the super don’t connect but it still combos (eg: Ken’s max. dis. c.MK xx lvl 3Hurricane Kick Super).

6

Tick throw is the last part of a 3-part mixup on a downed opponent (only a 2-part mixup if the opponent has no DP or Super)

Part 1 - respecting/drawing out the dp or super.
You don’t want to start a meaty or a low short if they expect it and dp/super you on wakeup. So you need to walk up and either block or get close, whiff a low short then block. This can trigger the dp/super reflex. You block it, then punish. Even a simple sweep to punish is good as you can restart your mixup attempt immediately after.

Part 2 - they are waking up blocking (or waking up throwing), so can attempt a frame-trap (counter-hit trap)
Once they are thinking you might block if they wakeup dp/super, you are more free to start a mixup at point-blank range. I’ll use sakura as a generic example.

Sakura does a point-blank low short that gets blocked. If the opponent is mashing, she can close standing fierce (3 frame move) right after the blocked low short, it will beat out anything the opponent is mashing, then she can combo qcf hadoken, which is safe on hit or block.

Note that you will spend most of your time between Part1 and Part 2.

Part 3 - they are fearing the counter-hit trap AND fearing you will block if they wakeup DP/super.
Finally, you have setup the scenario where a walkup throw MIGHT be successful. You can’t rush the throw, because you can’t throw someone in a blocking animation.

Sakura simply does a low short (blocked), then walks up and “times” the throw (dash throw is decent, too). It can be teched, that’s why command throw chars can have stronger mixups. If they react with mashing, you need to go back to Part 2.

So you see, you don’t get to the throwing stage of the mixup until you’ve put THE FEAR in them ^^ DPs and supers are a problem, because you might believe “they won’t DP this time…” and then they do =P Ah, snuffing the tech roll should also be in part 1. Oh well. I’m sure there’s other random stuff I’m not covering but that’s the basics.

To create your own mixups, it’s handy to have the frame data available. Follow-up moves need to be 2-4 frames, anything else is too slow.

Laggy moves are roll > super bait. Don’t spam them.

Here’s some advice from jchensor from back in CVS1. When someone is trying to escape your footsies, they will jump-in or roll (or roll-cancel today). So if you sense that, backoff a little bit and watch for the jump AND the roll, then punish or AA the best way you can. Give them rope to hang themselves with < my advice.

7

Tons of great info. It’ll help me a lot, thanks.

In regards to:
“Can you do d.lk, qcf+lp, d.lk, qcf+p instead of just doing d.lk, lp, d.lk + hold lk, qcf x 2 + P?”

I was hoping you could use this method for joe since hurricanes are hcf instead of qcf. This means that qcf+lp would just buffer the super right and nothing would come out except a standing jab? I’m not 100% sure and can’t get to the arcade till later today to test if this buffering method works but if it does, it’ll help a lot since it seems like a pretty difficult cancel.

And for after the tech, it’s probably best to use your fastest normal correct? So for sagat, s.lp unless they can crouch it, c.lp for cammy and s.lk for joe (2 frame)?

8

Obviously if he was asking it is not obvious, he specifically mentioned a multi hit super too…

I was just clarifying for his sake.