The LS-64 just arrived today. This thing is HUGE in size, and the distance to the gate is 2.5x the length of a traditional joystick. I’m using a balltop and dustcovers from a spare clone JLF (ripped from brawlstick) I had laying around. The pictures below are taken next to a clone JLF for size comparison. I considered comparing a JLF and LS-32 as well, but chose not to for the sake of time (didn’t want to take the time to take them out of my sticks and then put them back in).
I want to give another big thank you to Per of Akishop.jp! This project would have been put on a stand-still if it wasn’t for you, your kindness is very very appreciated. Thank you so much.
I don’t have time today but I will update the thread with a new post tomorrow regarding information on:
[list]
[] The button layout
[] Thoughts on the joystick’s circle gate
[] Mounting the joystick
[] PCB wiring
[*] And finally building a prototype stick
[/list]
Thanks for the kind words, happy to help out!
As some of you may have seen I may be doing a Wii board, do people want analog support for it? If possible please write what you want it to handle and I´ll see what I can do.
Also, I thought about JLF and having a analog-kit for it, anyone did any work on that?
I would be very much interested in the analog kit, but one question that’s stuck in my mind is would the kit be a simple plug and play solution? I’m not sure how that would work on a JLF due to constraints for movement by the 4 tabs and the small platforms that the gate sits on unless you provide a kit that attaches to the actuator and mounts above the gate and beyond the tabs.
Also i’d very much be interested in a Wii board with analog support.
edit: @TheBlackHombre do you think you could tell us what the part # or whatever is written on the pots are?
I don´t know yet how to solve it, th best would be if it was just a plug-n-play thing on the JLF, I have to look into it.
Btw, parts number on the LS-64 should be in the pictures I took I think (see above).
Sorry for the lack of updates guys, I’ve been really busy this past week and haven’t had enough time to write down everything in a gathered and structured manner. I have been researching a lot during my spare time and have a ton of bookmarks and tabs open on my phone still. I will update this thread with all the news tomorrow afternoon.
Yeah maybe it will come out later this year hopefully. I had a different approach for a solution for the JLF but this is also very nice, love the ability to customize everything.
This sounds awesome actually, would the analog-kit just replace the existing JLF pcb/microswitches? I’m very curious and interested in this, I would like to know more about this.
Picture:
Text: [M] (M is inside a box) Elkn 95
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Yeah I’ve come across this as well during my research on the subject, but Project Magenta isn’t actually “analog”. It’s analog in the sense that you can change the directional input ranges, but all input is converted into cardinal digital inputs. So at the end of the day, your joystick is still being connected to the arcade stick with a 5 pin harness.
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I have updates for you guys, but before I go into them; I want to apologize for the lack of updates in the past 2 months.
[details=Spoiler]
The reason is a bit personal which is why I put it in a spoiler but I’ve recently graduated from my university, as well as recently finishing all of my needed certifications. I’m 22 and have been trying to start my career, so most of my time has been going to sending in applications to hospitals and clinics around the area, looking daily for new job postings, inquiring about positions in person, etc. I’ve been really hopeful these past months but have been becoming really really really stressed out as of lately since I still haven’t found anything :/.
In addition to my personal life, this post alone took me a few weeks of writing and editing. So again I apologize for the slow updates but I hope you guys can bear with me during this time.
In hopes of countering any future slowness, I will post a timeline I’ll try to stick to at the end of this post.[/details]
Updates:
Each section is rather large so I’ll be breaking them up with spoilers. I have included hyperlinks into the text as well to give background information on some of the topics I talk about. I have been in contact with TerryJ (a modder from the SmashBoards forums) and Ashen (a modder from the GC-Forever forums) who have helped me with information. TerryJ most notably has he helped me a lot with information and brainstorming ideas regarding wiring.
Button layout
Spoiler
Intro
I’m going to explain everything regarding the button layout because I believe there is a lot of confusion going on behind my thoughts on it. I want to create an optimal button layout for game play purposes that also allows customization ability. Even though the finished product will be my stick, I want to create a standard layout for others to follow. That is why I originally designed the button layout I did to accommodate two base button layouts; but I did a poor job of explaining that which is where most of the confusion came from I believe (I will explain more in the revised button layout section below).
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Background
When stripped of shortcut and duplicate buttons/triggers; Smash Bros is essentially a 4 button fighter: attack (A), special (B), jump (X/Y), and shield (L/R). Grab (Z) is a shortcut of Attack + Shield, I have even tested this myself in many general and character specific scenarios (including Z aerials and Z tethers).
I was originally opposed to duplicate and shortcut buttons; I wanted the 4 base buttons and that was it it. However, due to the suggestions from people in here and doing more testing; I have decided to include the Z button as well as duplicate buttons (jump and shield) into my revised layout. In addition to this, Project M (I play Project M more than I do Melee) was updated to 3.5 a few weeks ago (last updated 9 months ago) which includes a substantial update to how duplicate button inputs are registered in-game.
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Before I talk about the revised button layout, I want to talk briefly about how I made decisions regarding the button layout. I originally thought of a button layout that would be efficient in “theory” and then tested that layout out in “practice” viaDolphin netplay (on arcade stick). What works out in theory doesn’t always work out in practice, so I’ve scrapped and revised layouts until I ended with 1 “natural” feeling layout. A very important factor in the decision making was how the layout impacted the ergonomic hand position when performing advanced techniques. The whole point of making this project is to create something that is more efficient than a controller, so I don’t want to make complicate gameplay any further by needing to use awkward hand positioning on the arcade stick. Something worth mentioning is that I also drew ideas from people playing with the controller in a “claw” layout.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Revised Button Layout
I designed the button layout with customization ability for 2 button layouts (P4A-inspired and KOF-inspired since these are the 2 I believe feel the most natural). I tried to demonstrate an explanation of this while giving a visual of the P4A-inspired layout, but I feel that is what caused the majority of the confusion.
[list]
[*] NOTE: The reason why I have the c-stick buttons above/below the vewlix buttons; and not on the left side like FreedomGundam’s suggestion, is because doing so would obstruct the space needed to mount the joystick. The LS-64 is HUGE, I need a lot of space in between the stick and buttons because of this. In addition, having 8 30mm (vewlix layout) buttons also minimizes the amount of total space I have to work with on the panel.
[/list]
I’m still open to suggestions but this is what I believe will become the final layout. It leaves 3 free buttons left over (4 if you don’t map Taunt) that can be mapped to whatever. I will personally map the extra buttons like this (extra buttons shown in red): http://i.imgur.com/H0BTeqm.png
Even though it may not look like it, a lot of thought and testing went behind this layout. Note: The button layout is different than what I posted in the previous post.
Basics
[list]
[] Uses the KOF-inspired button layout (4 white buttons)
[] A (attack) and B (shield) buttons are in simple locations which make menu navigation simple
[] Shield is mapped to both L and R (offers no game play benefit but allows you to exit matches) Note: Melee players can choose to map only 1 shield button, and another shield button to serve as a “light” shield. I will elaborate in the wiring section.
[] You can throw with Street Fighter’s input: attack + shield
[] You exit matches with: attack+shield + start
[] Z button is mapped (serves as shortcut for shield + attack)
[/list]
Advanced
[list]
[] Shield is set to L and R 100% ‘click’ input, if shield were partially inputted; wavedashing and powershielding would not be possible
[] Jump cancel grab is just a kara throw input: jump + (shield + attack), if the player doesn’t want to throw with 2 buttons. He can plink jump with grab (Z button) which is located right underneath
[] DACUS is a plink of (c-stick down ~ attack) which are located right on top of each other
[] Taunt (dpad) is located underneath special so footstooling an opponent without moving your hand
[] Wavedash is a simple strum (not plink timing, closer to double tap timing) of (jump ~ shield)
[] Out of Shield options are very simple due to each finger having access to a button
[] Because the LS-64 has a long throw distance, players can play with tap-jump on without risk of mistaken jump inputs, thus making aerial combos and certain OoS options easier
[] 4 cardinal C-stick buttons allow easy pivot attacks, Smash DI, and aerials without directional input.
[/list]
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I plan on releasing a video in the future, showing how the easiness of advanced techniques when performed on an arcade stick as well as how to perform them on a stick. I will be showcasing technical characters in both Melee and Project M such as Fox, Falco, Ness, Peach, etc. Something interesting worth mentioning is that a OoS wavedash input (referring to Melee because there stricter input leniency compared to Project M) becomes very similar to a just-frame input (similar to the Tekken series except with a much easier directional input), I’ll elaborate on this in the future when I make a gameplay video.
The removed piece of plastic serves both as the joystick’s gate, and the base of the joystick. I wonder if it’s possible to 3D print a new base that has a square gate shape. This is mere speculation so I would have to do further research to see if this is a realistic possibility (mainly due to having to 3D model one and durability testing), however this is a minor issue since I can continue working on this even after the final stick is built. However, me wanting a square gate is just personal preference since I prefer using them on all my joysticks.
However a square gate vs a circle gate does offer pros and cons (compared to each other) in some aspects of gameplay like angled smash attacks, wavedash angles (determines how far/short you go), etc. From me playing on Dolphon emulator with a JLF, I’d prefer using a square gate over a circle gate.
Mounting the joystick
Spoiler
I’m considering using the Universal Arcade Joystick Adapter Plate from Paradise Arcade Shop to allow me to mount the LS-64 in a traditional way. I compared the mounting plates of the LS-64 (if you can consider it a mounting plate) and the JLF, so 3 screws should mount into the LS-64 with the adapter plate. If not, I’d probably have to make something custom to mount the joystick (which is really really weird to mount).
PCB wiring
Spoiler
Background Info
Please read this webpage to see how an analog joystick works. The Seimitsu LS-64 appears to work the same way. Each potentiometer has 3 wires each and then are bundled together into a 6 pin wire harness which can be seen in TheRealNeoGeo’s post.Note: The 6 pin wire harness is red. http://electronics.howstuffworks.com/joystick3.htm
However only the PCB pinout chip is actually needed for many of the controller’s inputs, which should make the wiring process easier. Wiring the PCB this way loses the rumble feature, but that’s irrelevant since the rumble feature can’t be incorporated into arcade sticks anyway. http://www.gc-forever.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=1300
I also have all the equipment I need to start working (not counting the actual wiring, quick disconnects, and terminal strip): multimeter, soldering iron kit, dremel, and PCB. http://slagcoin.com/joystick/pcb_wiring.html
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- L/R Triggers Since I’m using an arcade stick, I will be using all pushbuttons to play. I want 1 button to be a 100% ‘click’ input (shield), and 1 button to be a variable input (light shield) (as shown in my personal button layout).
The triggers themselves are analog, however the Gamecube controller PCB pinout chip can be wired directly for a “click” input. This will serve as the wiring process for the shield button.
Pictures for reference:
First party controller (top right image)
On the back of the Gamecube controller PCB, there are 2 sliding potentiometers that attach to the L/R triggers and give anywhere between a 0-100% pressed signal. Pressing the trigger (on the controller) slides the sliding potentiometer. I believe the potentiometer resists the voltage depending on how far the sliding potential is pressed (trigger) and that is what’s read in-game. When the trigger is pressed all the way, you will come into contact with a tact switch that gives a physical “click” input. Without this click input, you wouldn’t be able to activate a full shield (only a light shield) which means you wouldn’t be able to do some advanced techniques like power shielding and wavedashing. It is also worth mentioning that without this click input, you cannot exit matches (even with a 100% signal input on shield).
For the shield button, I can just wire 1 pushbutton directly to the GC controller PCB pinout which gives a ‘click’ input.
For people that don’t play Melee, the information beyond this (within the L/R Trigger section however) is optional. Smash Bros games after Melee no longer have light shielding so both shields buttons (X and Y) can be mapped to one pushbutton (as shown in the original revised button layout).
I’m considering using a knob potentiometer to replace the slide potentiometer (also 3 pinned) to work in conjunction with an arcade pushbutton for physical input. The knob itself can be located in the back of the stick in the “select” button’s location (start and select button location on Madcatz TE). This means that I can rotate the knob and set the variable shield input (0-100%) myself. However, unless I can wire the knob (when set to 100%) to act as a ‘click’ input; I will not be able to exit matches.
What are your guys’ thoughts on how to accomplish this? I want to wire a knob potentiometer to work in conjunction with an arcade pushbutton for variable (shield) input; while also having a ‘click’ input on 100%? Not having a ‘click’ input was an oversight on my part as I did not discover this until I was ready to post this.
Extra: I’d preferably like to use this knob capattached to the knob potentiometer.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Right Analog Stick
The analog sticks on a GameCube controller act as voltage dividers, the operating voltage of the GC controller is roughly 3.4v. So when you turn on the GameCube with the controller plugged in the console “calibrates” the analog sticks center position every time. In voltage, the center position should end up being something around half of 3.4v (1.7v). So the centered voltage is 1.7v and then when you tilt the analog stick in either direction the potentiometer on each axis varies the voltage low to high depending on the direction you push the stick, something like this:
This illustration is just for reference though, and may not be exactly correct. I need to use a multimeter and figure out which directions pull “high/low”.
I will be wiring the right analog stick (c-stick) into 4 cardianal pushbuttons. So I need to figure out the voltage values on the right analog stick of the GC controller and send the “dataline” on each axis whatever voltage it needs to be fully depressed (which will be either 0v or 3.4v). So then I just connect the buttons that need 0v to ground and the buttons that need 3.4v to the 3.4v supply line on the controller.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Left Analog Stick
The left analog stick (LS) on the gamecube controller can be unhinged and removed from the LS potentiometers. The LS potentiometers are 6 pinned, with 3 for each axis.
I originally thought to separate the wires (in the LS-64) from the harness and solder them directly to the LS potentiometers. But the thought occurred to me that I could solder a 6 pin receiver to the gamecube controller LS potentiometers instead, that way I can easily ‘unplug’ and ‘plug in’ the joystick for whatever reason in the future. (Imagine these harnesses connected together http://www.mo-co-so.com/v/vspfiles/photos/MCS-BIC-06P-2.jpg).
However, the Seimitsu LS-64 is a 10v joystick. I’m not sure if I need to do any tinkering with the joystick to work when wired to the left analog stick?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- RJ45 jack (optional)
This was very last minute on my part, but if it’s possible I’d like to install a RJ45 jack and use a detachable gamecube cable with it. I still have to do more research on this but here are some links with information regarding the RJ45 cable and GC controller cable. RJ45 Nintendo Gamecube Controller Protocol Installing Gamecube controller cable to MC Cthulhu Note: I will still be using a GC controller PCB; this page simply has information about the detachable RJ45 gamecube controller.
Building a prototype stick
Spoiler
Equipment
I already have a multimeter, dremel (if I need it), and multimeter. The only other equipment I need are:
[list]
[] Wiring Pliers
[] Tri-wing screwdriver
[/list]
Wiring
Outside of the buttons, pcb, and joystick; the only materials I need to wire everything are:
[list]
[] Various colored 24 AWG Insulated Wire
[] European-Style Terminal Strips
[] Non-Insulated, Single-Barrel Quick Disconnects
[] Clear 3/16" Heat-Shrink Tubing
[/list]
The point of the prototype stick is for me to make sure all the wiring is correctly done. I’ll most likely just use a big tupperware as a temporary case while I do the wiring (this will be my first wiring job). I will then move everything to a more permanent (but still temporary) case like a gutted Brawlstick or something once the prototype is finished. I have big plans on what I want the final arcade stick to look like so I’ll be contacting a custom case builder in the future regarding this. Stay tuned!
Timeline
Spoiler
Besides the some oversights I had until recently, I feel like I’m ready to start building a prototype stick really really soon.
Dec - Jan: Solve remaining wiring issues Jan - Feb: Order parts and build a prototype stick
I really want to start working on the prototype stick as soon as possible, I’m very very excited for this project to finally take off.
Only slightly related but I’ve played smash with a stick using an emulator and pc. It’s a lot like playing smash 4 with just the sideways wiimote. Meaning you don’t have analog control of your characters, but it’s serviceable. In fact, you get instant smash capability since it’s not analog! It’s actually pretty fun this way (and with a hitbox.) Your idea is better by miles though!
It’s been a week since the thread was updated with my progress so I want to bump the thread and tag people’s names in this thread so they get a notification and look at the thread.
In other news, I got a job in my career field so the project should continue with no more hiccups or time delays!! The only reason why I put this in a spoiler is because it’s a personal matter.
I’m actually avoiding the thread because I want to tackle this project in the future as well, and want to look at it with “fresh” ideas in my head rather than possibly being subconsciously inspired by other work.
Haha sure that’s fine, at least stick around for tips regarding the wiring process when I start building the stick. You can be as creative as you want with your stick, but having a diagram for the wiring process will help alleviate any future issues you may come across!
I’m hoping to hear some feedback from the others who have been posting in here before, I’m a bit sad that the thread seems to have died so far.
Good to hear that there is (and will be) more progress on this; I’m very curious to see how this is going to go.
A little clarification in response to your response to my suggested button layout:
My suggested button layout actually requires less hole-drilling, and doesn’t require you to add any additional holes between the joystick and the main Vewlix buttons. If you look at my diagrams, you’ll see that the main buttons use for Smash (Jump/Attack/Shield/Special) are actually positioned on the OUTER (ie, right-most) 6 buttons on the Vewlix layout. Leaving the inner-2 (the two left-most buttons) available for the directional-Smash attacks. You’re also not introducing any new buttons/holes between the joystick and the standard Vewlix layout, so mounting the joystick should not be an issue.
This would also eliminate the 3-4 extra/unused/free buttons that you described in your layout. However, if your goal is to assign functions to these buttons out of necessity rather than opportunity (ie, “I need to have X-function at this additional location” rather than “Oh, here’s an unused button, maybe I can use it for something?”), then perhaps my rationale might not apply in your train of thought.
Can’t be tagged but I subbed this thread. Glad to see that progress will continue, I really want to see that LS-64 put to good use! The more I see this the more I want to try my hand at making some sort of pot mod for a JLF or something.
Oh I see now, I didn’t realize that when I initially viewed your post. That is a very interesting use of the vewlix layout because it makes the button layout simpler at first glance.
I modified the layout slightly to show what I think is most efficient and necessary: an ergonomic “home row” hand position with a dedicated light shield button not compromising that doesn’t compromise that “home row” position, as well as 4 dedicated c-stick buttons. Note: The “home row” position I speak of is: thumb - attack; index - shield; middle - jump; ring - special. If the player light shields, they just shift the position of their thumb without disrupting the ergonomic position.
I’m not going to lie, I actually really like this layout. It only requires 3 extra holes to be drilled which is really really great. I’m going to keep tinkering and experimenting with this layout until I find something I think is the most efficient and comfortable using this kind of layout.
Thoughts that came into my head is shifting the 3 top c-stick buttons to the right so they’re literally on top of shield, jump, and special. That way, the player won’t need to shift his hand to the left when using the c-stick buttons. I may also switch light shield and the c-stick button (the one above light shield) so that light shield is immediately next to the shield button, and c-stick down is next to attack. That would make the most sense and help with ergonomics when comboing, but that means the player will have to shift his entire hand to the left when light shielding; thus throwing off the “home row” hand position. This would be bad for gameplay purposes because whenever the player light shields (which they will most of the time), their hand position is completely off. That is why I decided to put light shield where it was on my final layout, it just happened to be on one of the extra buttons that was available.
Another reason why I would like extra buttons (I was originally against them before, but now I want them) is so people can map duplicate buttons and have enough buttons for 3 taunts. Taunts do have some really practical uses, but their extremely character specific. Some characters may be able to spike with one of their taunts or perform a ledge guard with theirs, I don’t want to limit the player from anything that’s possible on the gamecube controller. So that’s my dilemna, needing 3 buttons for the 3 taunts that can be used in game.
I actually thought about the same thing. I thought about using an optical PCB for analog purposes so you wouldn’t have to install any extra parts to the joystick besides pots attached to the pcb. I actually had put research into how to make a pcb (it’s easier than I though surprisingly) so I’d like to try seeing what I can create once this project is done. I think a JLF pcb replacement would open up the flood gates for people who want an analog joystick.
Hi I’ve been following this forum since before my computer was busted via handheld & although you already have your heart set on a specific button mapping I just thought i’d drop this in here for discussion as it’s something i’ve considered before:
I might have the PCB for you at some point. We have an older project that has dealt with many types of digital and analog arcade controls. For our new project we have output to Wii/Wiiu emulating classic controller as well as what I think is a first, direct output to Wii U via USB by emulating the gamecube converter. We also cover a WIDE range of system outputs as well as classic console inputs. We have been chatting about adding direct gamecube out but it isn’t high on the feature list.
I use that Jasen’s Custom Panzer for SFII on PS3, steam on Mac, and all sorts of emus.
here is a bit more info about the current I/O: http://i.imgur.com/O37tOnf.jpg
Yeah I saw this before when you posted it. I have to re-watch the video to know a bit more about it again, but if I can output to a wired connection on Gamecube or Wii (I primarily want to play Melee and Project M), and have my own custom controls; this will work great.
I haven’t updated this thread in awhile, but progress hasn’t been at a stand still up to this point! I’m going to keep everything as a surprise for now, but be prepared to see a playable stick debut at the end of this month. I’m planning to compete with the smash stick at CEO (entering Melee) this year! This is all thanks to a very notable and well known member on this forum, Gummo.
