No joke. He was getting frustrated cause I kept taunting out of his demon. What a scrub :arazz:
So is this going to become another Kuroda jokes thread. I hope it does.
Still waiting to see a video of gigas being stuffed.
good luck with that
First of all, you can find out how many startup and invincibility frames each move and super art has here:
Japanese link
Google translated into English link
Edit: some of this info has been changed/updated recently, it seems. For one thing, it doesn’t always mention whether supers have invincibility, when I could have sworn it did before… 
There is SO much misinformation in this topic. Let me correct a few things:
[LIST]
[]Edit: Hugo’s SA1 has 1 frame of start-up. The site doesn’t mention any invincibility, but it seems impossible to be able to stuff it with a meaty. Still trying stuff in training mode.
[]Genei-Jin does not give invincibility frames.
[*]Ken’s SA3 has 2 frames of start-up and 2 frames of invinciblity.
[/LIST]
That said, there is clearly a priority system in 3s, where each attack has some numerical priority that decides which moves it will stuff, which moves it will trade with, and which moves will stuff it.
I believe the list looks something like this:
(Best)
- All Throws
- Most/All Supers, including Genei-Jin
3ish*. Most specials and fierces/roundhouses
4ish*. Most strongs/forwards
5ish*. Most jabs/shorts
(Worst)
- There doesn’t have to be exactly 3 priority levels after throws and supers. I really don’t know how many there are. More on this later.
I am 99%+ certain throws have higher priority than supers. Here’s a simple test with P1 Ken vs P2 anyone:
[LIST]
[*]Case 1:
Have P1 do standing close fierce xx SA3.
Have P2 do parry, then throw asap.
SA3 > throw, as explained below…
Parry gives P2 a 2-frame advantage.
Throws have 2 frames of start-up and 1 active frame, so it’s active on the 1st frame of SA3 only.
SA3 has 2 frames of invincibility, so the throw whiffs.
[*]Case 2:
Have P1 do fierce shoryu xx SA3 (cancel after first hit).
Have P2 do parry, then throw asap.
Throw > SA3 (yes I have seen this happen), as explained below…
Parry gives no frame advantage.
Both SA3 and throw have 2 frames of start-up and both are active on the 3rd frame.
SA3 has no invincibility on the 3rd frame.
The only explanation for throw > SA3 is that throws have higher priority.
[/LIST]
This also explains why Karakusas can beat out Ken’s SA3: you just need to time it so that one of the Karakusa’s 3/4/4 active frames (for short/fwd/rh) coincide with the 3rd frame of SA3. Edit: fixed active frames from 3/3/4 to 3/4/4.
As for most supers > non-throws and non-supers, I think that’s obvious from the fact that you can’t stuff Ken’s SA3 with any normals or specials except during Genei-Jin.
The rest of the priorities I just pulled out of my ass FYI. 
From my observations, I think:
most specials = most fierce/rh > most strong/fwd > most jab/short
But there’s no reason that there are only 3 possible priorities for these moves. There could be more levels of priority.
Lastly, some notes about invincibility frames:
[LIST]
[]Shin-Shoryuken has the 2nd longest invincibility period: 8 frames, with only 1 frame of start-up. (According to the site, if you get hit by the 1st hit then supposedly Ryu gets 23 invincibility frames. But I think his pose lasts longer than that: I wonder what happens if you reversal SSRK under an Aegis…)
[]Ironically, Shoryu-Cannon has the longest invincibility period: 9 frames. Hence it beats SSRK if they’re done simultaneously.
[]Ken’s jab and strong shoryus have partial, not total, invincibility. I don’t know what “partial invincibility” means exactly, but I’ve never seen a low hit stuff one of these moves (though they may trade), so I THINK it means invincibility to low hits. These moves are also unthrowable, so either the partial invincibility makes them unthrowable, or they are considered airborne from the 1st frame. (In the latter case, could they still be air-thrown?)
[]Generally, supers that look like Ken’s SA1 (doing shoryus on the ground) have more invincibility frames than start-up frames. So Ken’s SA1 e.g. cannot be stuffed by throws or command grabs, and should beat most other supers, since most lose their invincibility on their 1st active frame.
[/LIST]
I’ll give you guys a 3rd strike secret if you give me a vid of a gigas being stuffed.
I know there’s an issue with super flashes killing frames in Marvel, which in turn allows for certain full screen supers reach the opponent. Maybe super flashes have some sort of odd effect in this game too?
I’m asking btw.
Another thing for ya Bill307, you forgot a move that has more invincibility than Shoryu cannon and Shin shoryu combined, Makoto’s SAIII Tanden has a bazillion cancelable invincible frames that by far beat out 9, probably like an entire second or something. >.>
Oh yeah, I forgot about that, thanks. 
Actually I was messing around in training mode and decided to see what would happen if you used her SA3 during Chun’s SA1 (giant ball of pain). Makoto just stands there invincible for a good half-second before she starts auto-parrying again.
That’s conjecture if I’ve ever seen any.
wuuuut? You’re saying a jab could never trade with a fierce? I was with you until you started breaking down priorities beyond throw > hits. And when I say hits I mean any hit, so yes, like you said, supers too. That a GJ normal has some kind of special property, sure, there’s enough statements from people to say without any kind of testing that that’s probably true. However, normals having different levels of priorities is too much for me to swallow. I wish I had the game with me so I could investigate that.
I use Makoto’s c.lk as a meaty to stuff reversal mp SRK’s and Game Restaurant says stuff about upper body invincibility so I think it’s the other way around. The info on GR when translated is pretty unclear unfortunately. I think saying something like “I’ve never seen a low hit stuff one of these moves (though they may trade)” kinda contradicts the priority list you talked about before. If a normal could trade with an SRK then where’s the whole numerical priority thing come in?
I just want to explicitly say that I’m not saying you’re wrong, I’m just very sceptical.
I discovered some things in training mode.
-
It seems like, if both players do Gigas or Hyperbomb at the same time, then the 2nd player will always beat the 1st. (It also seems like Hyperbomb beats Gigas, ironically.)
-
Ken’s EX shoryu is SUPPOSED to be completely invincible for 5 frames, or at least during its first active frame. Vs Chun Li, it does indeed stuff a meaty back fierce, whereas a fierce shoryu trades (loses its invincibility on 1st active frame). However, EX shoryu has NO invincibility vs supers. (My test: P1 Ken does close fierce xx EX shoryu, P2 Ken does parry SA3.) The same goes for Akuma’s shoryus.
Note: I didn’t say a jab could never trade with a fierce. I said most jabs will never trade with most fierces.
Chun’s back rh and Dudley’s standing rh have stuffed my moves repeatedly (e.g. Makoto’s cr.mp and cr.mk), and often they look like they would’ve traded if there were no numercial priorities. Those are some examples of situations that make me believe these priorities exist. Another example: I have never seen e.g. Ken’s cr.mk trade with a shoryu, but I have seen his cr.hk trade with one.
Hmm… I could’ve sworn I’ve stuffed Ken’s reversal jab shoryu with mid/high hits before. I guess I still don’t know what kind of invincibility they have. I know the translated site says they have “upper body invincibility”, but it also says things like “invincible after 3 frames”, so naturally I don’t trust the translations.
Also note that I didn’t contradict myself. I said special moves and fierce/rh moves usually have the same priority. And when I said low hits might trade with an SRK, I was talking about Ken’s and Dudley.s cr.roundhouses, for example.
So by that logic Ken’s C.MK should never be able to trade with Ken’s or Dudley’s C.HK, or am I missing something? You could try that out and it’d either confirm or disprove the priority thing and put an end to the discussion.
Chun SA2 can trade with Ken SA3. Now figure THAT one out. Hahaha suckers.
This supports the why Genei-Jin can stuff even supers theory IINM.
The first person to find me a video of a gigas being stuffed can have a $20 money match with me at Evo best 2 out of 3 against my Gigas Hugo.