Possible SSF4:AE Match Up Changes For & Against Lord Bison

Classic Fighting Games Ultra Street Fighter IV
181

ot to keep sidetracking but

Dash is 17 frames.
U1 is 12.
That’s a 29 start up punish.

Aside from using it for gimmicks what are you punishing with this? Just random full screen jumps? U2 still works better for that.

There really is no good reason to use U1 at all with Bison. U2 works with every setup U1 does and then some. The only thing U1 works better for is punishing certain things but, at the same time U2 punishes things U1 can’t.

Maybe that’s why they’re changing U2 though. This way both ultras suck equally instead of one being 95% more useful than the other.

182

It’s not even a final change right now, so you never know what will happen. But if you’re relying on Ultra, damage, Bison isn’t the character for you.

183

I think they should change U1 up to make it have more uses. They should increase the chip damage a good amount and they should also let you combo it from ATLEAST a ex-skull diver or something!

Now for the Psycho Punisher idk why they would make it a charge motion in the first place and THEN on top of that increase the recovery. I could understand if they left it a normal motion and increased the recovery just to add a little more risk, but doing both is overkill. If anything they need to make the recovery even less and decrease the start up a lot so it can actually punish stuff. They could also maybe make it so he’s invincible the whole time he’s in the air so he can’t get knocked out of it so easily and they are forced to guess in some situations. Maybe increase the active hit frames too so they can maybe land into it if they were jumping and catch them if that makes sense.

184

Average total jump frames about 40-45. You can definitely punish it if you are twitchy and got some intelligent guessing ahead of you. Hell, even people who like to twitch footsie a lot could get hit by it. Just another tool at your disposal.

185

That would make it do 280 with full ultra bar. That is really bad for a 22 frame, super punishable ultra no?

Jesus

That’s the point. Landing it is just a nice bonus, keeping their zoning game in check is what you should really want.

186

I dont think any of us wait until we lose half of our life before we try to attack the opponent and our entire gameplan of attack is trying to use the ultra. Don’t be retarded.

My point is even U2 will catch random jumps.

187

Ultra 1 is better because it does more damage, more chip, and requires talent.

188

Sounds like you only use hard kick

189

And faster slide.

Am I the only one that thinks slide needs a slight speed boost?

Also would be cool if s mp hit twice as Bison is so easy to focus once he drops charge…

Another tweak thatd be great but may make Bison overpowered…if they completely got rid of Far S.hp, so only the close fp would come out. No more jumping/neutral jumping for other characters, every punish would just use s.fp instead of cmk/mp. That would be beautiful.

190

Can we at least get a cape as compensation? It’s the least they could do.

191

I’m more interested about stuff we didn’t hear about…which is pretty much everything aside from U1.

It’s a question of optimism or pessimism at this point because we know now that proposed changes can be as radical as adding new moves (overheads) or removing others completely (insta canon strike, seth’s jumping fierce). Throw motion alterations as well and I’d say we should be ready for all kinds of stuff whether it’s retarded nerfs or cool new, unexpected buffs (scissor kick charge time reduction for instance). It’s just that I doubt people are going to be spending their time after hours in line waiting just to see if cr.mk has vanilla’s hitbox again or whether scissor kick pushback has changed, especially when there’s yun and yang to be hype about.

I’m keeping my fingers crossed for something radical that people haven’t noticed at the loketests yet like maybe a jab PC after a lk scissor knockdown gives frame advantage like full screen EX PC does currently…just stuff like that that wouldn’t be noticed easily. I just wish they’d use this opportunity to give Dic some funner mixups. They’re giving Gief a gold platter with the non knockdown EX greenhand, I’d just wish they’d do something like that for us, maybe EX scissor kicks do not knockdown leading to a scissor kick/EX PC/throw mixup guessing game.

I know some of it’s silly but considering how out there some of these changes are there might be more in store for Dic, for better or worse.

192

What changes do you think Bison needs to address his bad match ups, or what changes would you give to characters who beat Bison without trying to break them in other matches?

I know some of his moves have limited use’s but I don’t think say making Devils Reverse and Skull Diver side switch-able or hitting people who use low crouching moves will address his bad match ups although they might make him more fun maybe.

I personally reckon Bison has 4 bad match ups in Super (along with my personal ratings). I possible think Fei-Long too but I haven’t made up my mind.

Guile (7-3)
Chun-Li (6.5-3.5)
Zangief (6-4)
E.Honda (5.5-4.5)

My only issue with Honda is just his damage output is better and if he does a special at the same time as Bison he will win clean or trade win. It seems he’s getting a general damage nerf, which helps Bison as it does everyone.

Zangief is getting changes but I’m unsure as to how they will play out. Can’t see buffs to ultra 2 making a difference here as Gief never uses it against Bison. Its also unclear how the lariat hitbox has been improved and its up for debate weather ex.green hand not knocking down is a good or bad thing. Many people have different opinions on that. As it currently stands my only issue with this match up is Gief can trade his way in to Bison via the air route. If Bison could just evenly trade with Gief with his anti air it would help.

As for Chun and Guile. If PP was able to punish their projectiles it would go along way to evening those matches in my opinion. But to be able to punish Guiles Boom you would a super fast ultra which would be probably be too good in other match ups.

I would remove Chun’s ability to trade df+lk to ultra 2. I would also change Bison’s neutral jump hard kick hitbox so at least it trades everytime with Guiles c.hp. I feel its really unfair that Bison can’t even neutral jump the projectiles of Chun and Guile without being stuffed by those moves.

I would also give Ex.Headpress air throw invincibility to help get around the air throw of those 2 characters.

I would probably lower Chun’s stun level as well to like 950 down from 1050.

As for the change to PP. Well it would seem changing to a charge motion will make this ultra alot less useful unless its sped up alot on start up. I don’t mind the added recovery though. I feel if Bison goes for a 50:50 on someones wake up and the opponent guess right they should have plenty of time to punish Bison back (I know they already do, but possible allow charge characters time to build charge for an ultra punish).

I do hear alot of people complaining about Bison’s ultra 2 being used as mix up when people are waking up. I don’t think its really fair to complain. I mean Blanka has the same option only it does more damage. It is punishable on block. It looses to reversals with invincible frames in most circumstances. I mean is it any worse than DP FADC Ultra from the likes of Sagat or Ryu, which is effectively a safe attempt at an ultra.

193

At the moment, EX greenhand not knocking down is a huge nerf for gief. Gief’s goal is to get in and make you play his wakeup games, which all lead to knockdown, leading to another wakeup game.

Even if he gains frame advantage off ex greenhand, it completely changes the matchup vs Bison, because he can’t threaten you with knockdown from range. Backwards teleport almost becomes free at that point, since his 150 dmg punish won’t lead to anything.

If they buffed U2 properly, it will be much scarier on Bison’s wakeup, except… teleport is much more viable now.

194

Use st Mp to anti air zang

Use neutral mp to evade guiles cr.HP

195

Zangief can ex-gh wakeup TP on reaction to force knockdown. You can play the mixup game (and lose like 500 damage) or you can ex-reversal out of there. But wait, all EX reversals lose to Gief U2. I don’t know if Gief U2 will catch backdash or not…

Also, I’ve gone against a LOT of Giefs and I have no problem winning damage wise vs. those that just jump in. Pick your anti-airs better. St. fp is okay, but I usually stick to well-spaced roundhouses. If they catch on to this, use cr. fp. You can see Gief jump a mile away.

196

He could still OS the TP seeing as he’ll be at frame advantage, no?

197

It was not the case with Vanilla Gief. His jumping arc was better.
Usually Giefs I meet don’t take U2. Should they against Bison ?

And finally, yeah, exgh not knocking down anymore is a huge nerf. Frame advantage alone can get reversaled, inv back dashed etc. Knockdown leads to abusing the engine’s great OS possibilities, especially for Gief. His oki on a kd opponent is NOT 50/50…

198

Well it can catch anything that has airborne frames. Not sure how practical it is.

I’ve seen some suggestions that in beta versions/loctest versions on vanilla SF4 that Gief did not knock down with his ex.green hand and they where saying it was very hard to deal with it.

If the new Ex.Green hand leaves Gief on frame advantage, can he not simply mix up into another ex.green hand, which will beat Bison’s backwards teleport and backdash, blocking, to bait reversals and forward teleport and then punish them or tick into SPD if they don’t do anything. Still seems like its a guessing game and those are always in Giefs favour.

199

That was my understanding of the change too. Still seems like tricky business for us.

200

This is the game that Zangief plays against characters who don’t have a serious anti-air special (DPs and whatnot). Defending the air against Gief often comes down to, as UltraDavid puts it, a “wheel of options.” He has a few awesome jump-ins, and they all have to be defended differently. As such, it’s a guessing game between you and him – he’s thinking, “what anti-air is he going to use and how can I beat it?” and you’re thinking “what jumping attack is he going to use and how can I anti-air it?” Bison definitely has the tools in this match, but it takes a shitload of practice/experience to be able to predict Gief’s attack and counter appropriately. I kinda fucking suck at it, tbh, but it can be done!

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