as always i’ll volunteer my energy to help run these tourney’s.
For either setup we will have to have a specified start time, if not a finishing time. People will have to adjust schedules slightly if they want to be involved, there’s no way to please everyone.
just have it in the evening is all i ask >.<
Hell I might start showing up again and I’m willing to help out, anything to get the scene going again. I hope its not gonna be nothin but IV though, then I think I’ll just wait for Tekken 6 br. Somebody should at least post up the potential games to be played and I’ll come down.
Here is another style of tournament worth taking a look at:
This is what I am used to from my Magic: The Gathering days.
Here are a couple of reasons why it might be a good choice(stolen from the wikipedia article):
I guess the main problem with this and round robin are that those formats are usually used when you can have a whole bunch of matches going on at the same time. With only a single set up, the number of matches they require can make them take a long time. Swiss does require less rounds than round robin though.
I was pretty happy with the double elimination bracket we did last night though. It seems like it is the fastest way to get things done. Going 2 and out sucks though! But that will just add fuel to my fire. I will win a match someday!
I wish we could do swiss, but I think it’s still too many matches. >_> A sixteen man double elim tourney, basically what we did last night, is 30 matches, and that took us, what, 3 hours? Two rounds of swiss is 32 matches, and I don’t know how many rounds you have to determine a winner in that kind of tourney, but likely too many.
Travis and I were talking about monthly round robins, where everyone could fight everyone over the course of a month, but at 16 people you need 240 matches total, or 60 matches every week, which is still too many, at least with only one setup.
I just don’t know.
Two rounds of swiss for 16 people is 16 matches.
4-8 3 rounds of Swiss
9-16 4 rounds of Swiss
17-32 5 rounds of Swiss
33-64 6 rounds of Swiss
65-128 7 rounds of Swiss
129-226 8 rounds of Swiss
227-409 9 rounds of Swiss
410+ 10 rounds of Swiss
So it would have been 32 matches for 16 people.
Tourney Results From 9/10/09
This is a tourney that randomly happened with the people that were at versis! Great tournament and also great job for people that took reins of this and stuck with it all the way through and kept it smooth.
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BBH “Abel/DICK”
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Alex " Sagat/Ryu
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RBX " Gen/Blanka/Guile "
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OMNE " Boxer "
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Simon " Ryu "
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Kwijibo " Claw/Boxer "
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Billy " Sagat "
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R Panada " C.VAPOR "
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Game God " Ryu "
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Mackinzie " Abel "
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Chanchi " Ryu "
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Pasqual " Rose and Random Box Akuma "
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Jeromie " Claw/Ken "
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Slash 5150 " Sagat "
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Drew " Ryu "
You are effing psychic. I was about to fill in your missing spots and that’s what I was going to put for myself pretty much verbatim. Slash played Sagat btw.
Last night was good stuff! I just got home from work a bit ago but I’m going to spend some time tonight looking at different ranbats and seeing what we can conform to our needs.
Right now, I don’t think weeklies are going to be feasible and still get a majority of the players to come out every week. Not to mention that doing what we did last night every week may override the real reason for Versis Thursdays and nobody wants to make it Ranbat Thursdays. For the first season I think we may want to try biweeklies and then from there we can discuss going to weekly or monthly.
Right now, we can discuss things like the monthly round robin Panda mentioned or other possibilities like limiting weeklies to first 8 that sign up, or have half the people play one week and half the next. The last couple wouldn’t be too cohesive but it’s a possibility. Swiss is certainly something we should try once and take into consideration.
We can also discuss ladder format if you guys want.
As far as setups, I’d gladly bring another copy of SF4 and a 360 MU if it would be cool with Nick to run on one of the other systems.
I’ll have a few different possibilities for ranbat point setups on here later if we do decide to stick with the double-elim format (and I’ll see what we would need pointswise for Swiss). Is everyone in agreement that this week’s tourney won’t give any points but will count towards seeding for future ranbats/tourneys?
First off…fuck you guys for saying the ranbat shit was on VFC. j/k haha.
Anyways copy pasta’d
Well, in regards to that, Chanchai brought up an important thing about peoples schedules getting in the way, or sometimes, there just might be too much shit to do to make it up that week.
So an amendment that could be done is, last thursday of the month, tournament as listed above.
The random…or set up Round Robins are for that month and can be however we decide. 4 players a pool, 6 players a pool, whatever. But it’ll make it so that you can just schedule it when you both are able to play.
I have a joyful scribble jot down on paper but it does make a bit of sense.
Damnit Slash… you did the brackets wrong :lol:
You switched A/B’s and C/D’s spots in Loser’s. It should’ve read
D
C
B
A
For people who lost 2nd Round of Winners. Instead you did this:
C
D
A
B
But beyond that it’s all good. I just manually edited the bracket and it can be found here. For future reference, people who prefer to be referred to by their names or nick names should let me know for clarity; in Kwyjibo’s case I couldn’t remember his real name 
Sorry yo!
Let’s talk options for the RanBats.
Here’s a quick summary of what might be feasible formats for the proposed RanBats at Versis:
1. A month-long Round Robin. Everyone is responsible for their own matches and preferably all matches will have a witness to prevent any discrepancies. Results will be kept by each player for themselves but also turned in immediately to help prevent any discrepancies. For unplayed matches, no points would be awarded/removed unless it was a case of one player not showing all month, in which case he would be given a loss; this would be something we would hammer out more (how many weeks before you’re considered truant and such) if we chose to go this route. Total points from the Round Robin would determine the winner although it’s not necessary to claim one in this event as the earned points will be directly translated into ranbat points towards your season standings. We’d probably do 3 or 4 month seasons with this format, meaning 3/4 sets of results for the season. There could be a buy in for each month which would come back at the beginning of the next month or put into an overall Season Pot.
2. Double Elimination Tourney. The default format we tried out. While time consuming, if we could get a second setup running on one of the smaller tvs this could work very well and take less than 2 hours for a 16 man bracket and shouldn’t take more than 3 unless we get into the area of 24 or more entrants. Likely to be held biweekly or once a month, this format would require a points payout similar to what can be found here:
Ranbat Point Payout
1 - 9 pts
2 - 7 pts
3 - 5 pts
4 - 4 pts
5 - 3 pts
6 - 3 pts
7 - 2 pts
8 - 2 pts
9 - 1 pt <- This is the equality point.
An alternate version, this one from Arcade Infinity:
1st place 8pts
2nd 7pts
3rd 6pts
4th 5pts
5th 3pts
5th 3pts
7th 1pt
7th 1pt
(No Equality Point, I believe)
I, for one, am in favor of the equality point. It keeps the point distribution closer and is a very minor punishment if you choose not to come or have to miss a battle. Buy ins would occur at the beginning of the tournament and pay outs at the end, possibly with part going into a Season Pot. If we can’t get a second setup running, we may want to look at the Japanese single-elim setup or one of our other options.
3. Ladder Format. Basically just a ranking system with no requirement of bracket play. We’d need to instill rules regarding how many games you play (you must play one ladder match each week maybe, with a maximum of 3, no playing the same opponent two weeks in a row, etc.) Rules governing truancy would also be implemented and we’d want to have a witness present as with the round robin. Earned points fluctuate depending on your points and the points of the person you won/loss against and this is something I don’t have experience with so any input would be appreciated.
4. Swiss Tournament Format. A compromise between round robin and knockout, giving players a guarantee of playing more than two matches. For a 16 man bracket we’d be playing four rounds so everyone would play four games. One point for a win and no points for a loss in each round, with the idea you keep playing people with similar point totals. Final result would be closer to a round robin than knockout so there wouldn’t be a real Finals unless we decided to use Swiss and then a top 4 bracket with the players with the highest points.
There is a variant known as the Konrad system where they only use your top x placements out of however many tournies you really play in. If, for example, we did a 3 month Season with biweekly Swiss tournies (ignoring the 5th Thursdays for the sake of simplicity) we would have 6 total, but we could implement Konrad and only consider top 5 placements for each player in their overall total. This would lower the punishment for an absent night without taking emphasis off coming out and playing your best. This Konrad system could also be applied to knockout tournaments as well if we so desired.
Now, this is where we need all the members of Team Portland to make their voices heard and come to a decision as a community. We should definitely give Swiss a try next week and see how that runs (I will try my best at running one of these, shouldn’t be too difficult and we’ll use seedings from yesterday’s tourney). Overall, I think biweekly double elims are our best option if we get a second setup running on the side, and a similar if not identical point system to the Aerial Rave ranbats as linked earlier should work well. Looking at my logarithm now, I don’t think we really need it but it’s something to consider in the long run if we ever need it. The standard point payouts should be just fine, plus the “bonus points” as Jetay mentioned for Most Improved of Best Showing each battle and such.
Just for clarity sake Kwyjibo=Kevin
Oh and i guess i should give my opinion on the ranbats. I think it should be a double elim set-up just like we had this time. We can probably get that running much smoother which would cut down on time and i couldn’t see each tourny lasting more then 3 hrs unless we start getting more entrants. Oh and for what its worth, I think we should hold these tournies once or twice a month at most. considering school is starting at the end of this month some of us my not be able to make it out every week.
I’m in favor of bi-weekly double elimination tourneys with the Aerial Rave point system.
man i wish i wouldent have missed versis this week…
after reading through all the great info pasqual posted i think id have to agree, at least for the first season. a month long round robin could be cool too but i dunno how practical it would be to START with that set up.
Ah, alrighty man. Sorry about that, I had enough trouble last week spelling ‘Kwyjibo’ right I didn’t even think to ask your real name :lol:
Hi All,
Thursday was a great night, but I will eventually post more about that in the Fight Night thread.
I want you guys to keep on talking about the Ranbats, generate ideas, and I’m glad to see the community sparked up on it right now. It is great to see this enthusiasm.
I also don’t want to wave my hand too much on the matter as well. But I will continue to put in my two-cents because for me, it is important to preserve what was intended with the Fight Nights and why I like to keep it mostly open.
Anyhow… I am beating around the bush a little bit right now because of that conflict between making it clear what I’m worried about but trying to be open enough for you guys to find the best format that works for you guys.
Whatever I say here isn’t final and it’s just my thoughts at the moment. I am trying hard to keep myself open, so this is not me saying “don’t do this, don’t do that.” At this point, it’s just “this is what I’m worried about” or “this is what I like” (though I might just limit it to worries in this post).
So I repeat, none of this is a mandate, just my thoughts for now (and to Jetay, whatever differences and agreements we have, I love you man–but not in a queer way):
*** I’m concerned about formats that I would deem “too hardcore” by being too demanding on one’s time.
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To be honest, I greatly prefer a format that should require only an average of 20-60 minutes of an individual’s time per week. And I mean total time, not just “well that’s how much time he played in the tournament that took up 3 hours.”
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I stress this as an average because it also means that if someone misses a week, there are aspects that can be made up on another week with (most likely) more time put in.
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When I state my concern that Fight Night becomes Ranbat Night, I also meant that consequence to apply to the participants of Ranbats.
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I think the last statement becomes more clear if I reiterate that sometimes it gets taken for granted that Fight Nights tend to go over 4 hours.
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Fight Nights going over 4 hours have some benefit to the business on the good nights which I will not deny.
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But I will also not deny that technically, past 12:30am, I am running resources and offering my services for free–but that’s because I love the community and love seeing you guys have a great time and making sure it’s a place where everyone can enjoy fighting games together.
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I don’t require my employees to stay open for Fight Nights, it is at their discretion and option if they choose so.
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And yes, it has a cost to me. I skip out on Gresham Chamber of Commerce which is important for marketing and I eventually have to start doing that again if things go well for Versis. In the case of this week, I had so much work ahead of me (all Friday) that I slept for 1 hour in a 48 hour period (which is also why I didn’t write yesterday–I didn’t want to post without a sane and sound mind).
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But I’m not crying about the cost to me, nor is it really the reason I’m concerned about Ranbat formats. But I hope you guys acknowledge that and to be honest, some people like Ray and others are among the first to point it out–it’s so greatly appreciated.
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My concerns about the format is my concern of how it shapes people’s attitudes going into Fight Night going forward, including some levels of peer pressure that are inevitable.
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I love competitive fire, but I like it channelled a bit more efficiently and flexibly if we’re considering everyone’s overall time.
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At the moment, I personally favor a form of blocked Round Robin stretched over a 3-6 week time. I’m not saying this is how it has to be–but for my concerns: it’s possibly most efficient, still very competitive, and it also gives players a chance to focus on an average of fewer matches in a week, but more time and session time to practice, reflect, discuss, learn, and try new things–yes, even during the fight night.
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I have trouble with even bi-weekly Double Elimination Tournaments mainly because of the time it takes, but also because I believe it also taxes a player’s downtime too.
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That time waiting through a section of the bracket for the next match is a time that’s good for stirring the competitive fire, but I do feel it’s wasted in the Fight Night that’s the one day everyone’s playing fighting games together.
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If the system integrated a double elimination tournament every 5-8 weeks (to settle some points and give people something to direct their progress towards), I think that’s a cool option. I think mini-season ending double elimination tournaments are great actually because they bring back the tournament pressure and iron out the things that aren’t covered in a round robin.
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I think having double elimination tournaments every two weeks is too taxing. I know it sounds weird when you look at Preppy’s and what not… But we do have some constraints at Versis in terms of stations and the earlier I put a system out on the floor, the more at risk it is–I probably will have to ask people to volunteer their systems (which OMNE and Panda have been so generous with among others).
I’ve written a lot, and I know a lot of it gets loopy. And there’s more to express… but I have to run to the bank lol. That said, I hope to continue explaining my concern over how I think it might affect Ranbat players if the format ends up being “too hardcore” imo.
But do consider that by being an “option” does not avoid the problems of being a peer-pressured event that could drain people’s experience with Fight Night. If you pull all the good players out of the rest of the fight night for 3-4 hours, even 2.5 hours, I do think it takes something away from the fight night. I also think putting out the attitude of “well you don’t have to be in it so screw you” is a problem for me at fight night because it does potentially divide a group I like to think we all work hard to bring together.
And I hope nobody thinks that getting something like Fight Night together, a common night for everyone to come together, is easy work. I know how easy it looks, my experience since college is that it’s not easy work. And it’s not just one person, but sometimes the continuous efforts of one person is required during the low moments to keep it going.**
Anyhow, I’m glad you guys are still experimenting and feeling it through. I probably will throw my idea of a format out there sooner or later, though the past few weeks have been extremely draining for me in terms of work 
-Chanchai
So many good points I hadn’t thought of myself! Probably could have thought about it myself a little more. Hmm…
It’s true. I didn’t play that many casual matches, even though we had a casual station setup; I was either watching hype tourney matches or others were already on the system. This wouldn’t be a problem with a season ending tourney, but to have it happen too often…It would limit my game time, which is like, the opposite of why I go to Versis?
If we can figure out how to split our group into their respective gaming levels, small continuous round robins could be great, with a tourney at the end to see just where everyone is at, everyone compared to each other and groups adjusted appropriately. That might put less pressure on appearing every week, but you could still have your group you work with when you are there. I don’t know how we want to separate the community, but we should be able to figure it out. Of course, these are just groups for the official ranbats; everyone should still be playing everyone at a casual station.
Ranbats should really just be single elim with a round at the end to play for 3rd place. Single Elim is fast. It premotes growth and adaptation on the spot, it also requires you to be on your game at all times, you cant suck out, by playing crappy for a game just to get in the mood. I say we should have single elim ranbats!
I’m not all that against quick single eliminations. Some quick ideas (that I didn’t put too much thought in) on a single elimination format is:
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Still possible to have a season ending Double Elimination Tournament
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Make the single elimination sessions quick and dirty so to speak
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To offset both quick and dirty and to not punish people harshly for not being there all the time, you count the top 2 performances from any 3 or 4 (up to discussion) successive series of sessions (take the top 2 performances of the month, discount the 3rd or 4th).
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Now if someone only does 2 sessions in a month, those two count. He’s not gonna take the best 4 of 2 months, just the best 2 of each month individually.
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This way, the players that missed a session or two don’t necessarily fall behind for missing, they just have fewer opportunities to better their score.
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The players that are always coming, god bless, aren’t being over-rewarded for just being there all the time, but they do have increased odds towards a better score.
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The differences really get settled in the monthly or season ending double elimination tournament (more points, but a guy who did #1 in tournament and no sessions will not be top).
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This kind of system can be quick, a little dirty, but it builds quick motivation and people can be a bit quicker pressed to work on things that cost them their single elimination match on the same day.
The seasonal or monthly tournament(s) is like the exam that pushes your grade over, but it’s not the curriculum. However, it will settle the differences in the scores that are going to be similar because of the “best 2 sessions in a month” rule.
Personally my in the moment random idea of a schedule (which is different from what’s said above a bit) is:
4 Single Elimination Tournaments: Best 2 Count (4 weeks)
1 Double Elimination Tournament (1 week)
4 Single Elimination Tournaments: Best 2 Count (4 weeks)
1 Double Elimination Tournament (1 week)
Best of the Best Fight: Top 4 of the season compete in a Round Robin, top 2 performers then play a Grand Final. (1 week)
Again, crazy idea, but I didn’t think about it. Just something I popped on the spot that can be done fast, can have some fairness, some quick inspiration for getting better and give people room for workshops or grudge rematches or whatever. And have ways for differences to get settled, and then the top 4 or 5 get settled completely in best of the best.
Sloppy but just a thought.
-Chanchai
P.S. I still prefer round robin blocks, but this is just something I’m thinking about on the single elimination idea.
I think that sort of schedule makes sense, depending on the number of players of course. But we seem to be picking up momentum lately, so it should work out okay. The only thing is do we really need to have entrance fees for the single elim tourney’s leading up to the double elim? Or should we just have like an everybody pays 1 dollar each single elim tourney and that goes into a pool that will then go to the top player (total points not double winner) at the end… I think ifyou want to do ranking battles money can be a good motivation but figuring out how that will work is important too.
So what Im saying is.
Single elim - everyone pays a dollar, money gets held (by Nick or someone trustworthy)
Double elim (season ender)- entry fee of some sort with a dollar going to the other pool like normal and then the rest in a regular 70 20 10 split… So the number one for the season gets some cash and the winner of the harder double elim tourney gets regular money, or if you get both you get a nice little chunk of cash.