Points based system for rank ideas

Regional Matchmaking Northwest
1

EDIT: Mockup of site is up for review. This mockup shows the scorecard, which will be used to submit results to the site. it does NOT submit to a database yet. Once this has been finalized, i’ll begin work on the backend stuff, program the interface to submit to the database, build the data query interface, build a registration system, and build the point calculation system.

Current mock up: http://srk.amurderofcrows.net/ <-- Data is organized better, but interface seems a little more “spread out” than i’d like
Original Mock up: http://srk.amurderofcrows.net/mockup2.html <-- Data is poorly organize on submission but the grouping feels better to me. Opinions?

The Goals:

[LIST]
[] Better record keeping of our scene to show and develop a history
[] Accurate depictions of who is best based upon what games they play, What character, offline, online, overall, regional, etc.
[] Expansion of scene to new players and new games, allowing a more all-inclusive scene
[]Ability to see at a glance where you or anyone else stand and what their tendencies are
[/LIST]

Example:[INDENT]You can search all registered SSF4 players, filter by region and by character played, to find out who in your region has won the most times with Sagat. You can then filter by individual player and find out how many times you have won with Sagat. Filter again, and you could see who holds the most perfects using Sagat.

[/INDENT]** Basic Principle:**

[LIST]
[]Regular Season consists of a round-robin of matches where every registered player for a particular game plays against every other player.
[]The number of times you can play any one individual will be limited so that the results are not skewed in favor of those who play more.
[]Points are awarded per match according to the point system discussed later.
[]Special Events and tournaments are scored a bit differently from the regular season
[/LIST]
Towards the end of the season, we will have playoffs consisting of special events which will be determined later.

The Rules (so far, anyway):

[LIST=1]
[]Every player must be registered before entering
[]Every match that counts for the season must be recorded and witnessed, so you have a minimum of 4 people involved.
[]Regular matches can be played anywhere as long as the above 2 rules are met.
[]Everyone plays everyone else X amount of times, but no more, and the season has a time limit.
[]Anyone can enter at anytime, and their matches will be added to everyone else’s schedule.
[]Upon completion of the match, the results must be submitted using either the web form or the offline application, otherwise it won’t count. Before submitting the match, both players and the witness must agree with the recorded results.
[*]Points are calculated based on the results of the match automatically by the web site.
[/LIST]

The Point System (so far, anyway):

Points assigned for the following (this is just an example and is not set in stone at all): Regular Season Matches (Default match length and rounds):

[LIST]
[] Win = 30 Points
[] Lose = 10 Points
[*] Draw = 15 Points
[/LIST]
Tournaments/Events (Point system here really needs to be tweaked. i want feedback here. This is by no means finalized at all, and i’ve gone back and forth between different scoring systems since concieved):

[LIST]
[]Final 4, winners bracket = +30 points (not really attached to this number at all)
[] Finalist, winners bracket = +30 points (not really attached to this number at all)
[] Finalist, losers bracket = +30 points (not really attached to this number at all)
[] Grand Finalist = +50 points (not really attached to this number at all)
[*] Tournament Champion = +100 points (not really attached to this number at all)
[/LIST]
Playoffs and Other Special Events

[LIST]
[*]This can be determined later.
[/LIST]

Goals for The Website (or offline app, or both)

[LIST]
[]Easy access scorecard to score matches
[]Built in calculation of point system
[]Query to find out results after submission
[]Checks and balances in place to prevent cheating
[*]Expandable to new games, new regions, new ways of viewing the data, and other new features, such as integration with the RBX Report Card system or the Oregon+ Ladder
[/LIST]
**
Potential Benefits:**

[LIST]
[] Places with smaller Scenes (Salem, for example) could still have their own ranking system without having to travel to a larger scene to participate…but if they do, all the points count for regionals…and if seattle comes down, those could count too.
[] We would have solid records to back up claims of who the best players are, and historical data to show how people are improving or not.
[] the system encourages and (very very minorly) rewards participation over non participation, not just winning. Yeah, it’s hard to get out to regular casual nights if you’re far away, but you can make it up at events. The main thing is that we want to keep the scene alive, growing and thriving.
[] This can be used as a tool to assist players in identifying their weak points as well. Maybe a player keeps losing with his favorite character but consistently wins on the rare occasion they use another character. They can pull up their own results and see this sort of thing.
[/LIST]
**
Possible Issues:**

[LIST]
[]This is based on time, so we would need to set a date for which the season would end and the champion crowned. It’s hard to catch up mid-season, so it is best if each season is shorter, perhaps every 3 or 4 months, maybe less. Will need a test run to see.
[]It is participation based, so people who don’t participate won’t go up. We all have lives outside of SRK/Street Fighter/etc, and sometimes we just can’t make casuals. The built in fix to this is that you only need 4 people to contribute to you getting your points and you can do it whenever and wherever, so we can help each other by having mini get-togethers on your own. I feel this will help build relationships in the community.
[*]People seem to like ladder systems here. I’m thinking about ways to incorporate a ladder system into this for challenges, and see how those challenges would equal out to points. Perhaps challenging another player requires certain point criteria…not sure yet, but this will be addressed.
[/LIST]

2

A win is a win is a win. These points are biased and the only thing that matters is whether you won, lost or drew.

3

Strong word for your system that COMPLETELY FAVORS the challenger…

4

Yeah dude, don’t go too crazy with the modifiers - keep it simple - a win is a win.

5

i agree, i dont believe the amount of life or w/e fashion you win in matters. its either a W or a L imo, my reason being is i believe some characters are aimed towards certain play styles. meaning some characters have stun combos and some are good at running out the clock i dont see why either would get more or less points. if a point system was implemented i would vote for the points received to only change depending on the turn out of players.
also even daigo gets perfected haha

i like the idea of a point based round robin setup, but like i said in the other thread we tried something similar when versis was open. and once it closed it just fell apart. my point is if this system was adopted we’d need specific a place where “events resulting in points” are held that is equally easy(as possible) for all participants to get to. and if there is multiple places that players would be able to obtain points then there cant be just 1 person declaring when/where points will be handed out, i feel like with this system the community has to be very involved(perhaps more involved then some prefer to be).
I think thats why the ladder system has had such positive feedback, because its easy and each player is responsible for themselves. no one has to rely on anyone else. even the challenge, though you could say that your relying on your opponent to show up, but if they dont you win by default. i dont mean to just come talk up the ladder system(i was one of the first guys talking about a SF4 ranbat way back) its just so flexible that atm i think any problems with it can be ironed out.

edit: that being said i like alot of your ideas. i think character choices, win %, and weather you went 2-0 or 2-1(rounds) are valuable data that could be compiled and learned from. pretty similar to the Report Card idea that Ray and others have been talking about.
we could have 2. 1 being done on a match by match basis(or even character specific) and another being a total account of your stats. but thats just me thinking out loud.

6

Seeing that we have another thread discussing ladder ideas, I think it’d be best to talk about it in one thread.

7

Done and done. 3 votes to strike modifiers pull it out as i wasn’t all that attached to it anyway. thanks guys!

Easy enough. The idea is to have a website where the data is entered. The only requirement is to have 4 witnesses…winner, loser, and 2 others. This can easily be done at any location, period. The scoring isn’t done by the players or the witnesses, it’s done by the website based upon the programing…and this kind of programing can easily be done in Excel or something else. not hard at all. It can even be used with the current ladder Panda is talking about, as long as the records are kept (without modifiers, we’d want players, characters, ultra selected, who won/loss each round, who witnessed. I’d also like to get perfects, completes and time overs recorded, but they won’t count for anything). If it gets recorded, it can be entered and backdated later once everything else is ready.

I’m thinking we’d want a group of people trusted in the community to be the moderators of this system. The idea is that the community will police itself…if anyone tries to skew the system in their favor, it’s going to bring down the reputation of 4 members of the community. Honest mistakes will happen, but repeated mistakes won’t as the witnesses and opponents will change each time. With this sort of check and balance system in place, we can literally use the system at any event with at least 4 registered and respected participants.

The only involvement anyone does is record keeping. That’s after the system is finalized and site is created, of course. Point assignments will be handled by computer.

I’m actually not against the ladder idea itself so much as the limitations of it…it really can’t be expanded so well, and it doesn’t promote much in the realm of record keeping. if you obtain a certain rank and there aren’t enough places for you to be at that rank, someone gets bumped off. this is going to lead to a lot of transition in the low to mid ranks. people will be constantly within 2 places to rank up, and someone will get knocked off. At least, that’s how i understand it. Also, as was mentioned here, the rules for that ladder system are a little biased towards the challenger. I’m hoping to eliminate bias as much as possible…kinda going with the philosophy of “maybe not everyone will like the whole package, but at least it will be fair.”

I also want to use ray’s report card idea…if i could, all of these matches would be recorded and archived, then critiqued by the upper ranks according to the criteria that ray suggested using. this should help players who aren’t as good get better.

8

my opinion on the subject is displayed with this video.

[media=youtube]A2PJ4_PO0WA&feature=PlayList&p=3DD9AA945DB910E6&playnext_from=PL&playnext=1&index=15[/media]

9

i see, well thanks for the in depth replies that gave me a clearer image of what you have in mind. the website sounds interesting.

Edit: however i dont see how the challenge system is biased. i mean “a little” may be accurate only in that the challenger has nothing to lose and everything to gain, but the only reason i could see someone really being concerned with that is if they become stagnant and wanted to retain their current placement while others were trying to pass said person up and get to 1st.
Cole’s thread says “champions must always defend” and thus they will always have more to lose then the person challenging them. if your thinking its biased in a different way then i guess i just dont follow atm.

10

Alright, so i’ve begun work on a mock-up website to test this idea up. I want to get the interface right before i work on any back end stuff, so i’ll need some opinions:

Here is the data i think we need/want. I’d like input from you guys as far as if you want more data in, or if some of this data is not helpful.

**
Registration Data:**
[LIST]
[]Handle/Screen Name (Required)
[] First Name (eh. better for us, but whatever)
[] Last Name (eh. better for us as a community, but not REALLY needed)
[]Nickname
[] DOB (really only used for over 21 venue issues. Will help with event planning)
[] Phone (optional)
[]Email (required. we’re all online this should be accessible)
[] Messengers (optional. MSN, AOL, YIM, and whatever else)
[] Website/Facebook/MySpace (optional)
[] Gamertags (optional, XBL, PSN, Wii, Stream)
[/LIST]
**
Round/Match/Set reporting (all are required, with most common settings auto selected):**
[LIST]
[] Date of Set (can be set to auto populate with today’s date or be overwritten)
[] Set Type (Drop down menu with default of “Normal”, options of “Normal, Random Select, or Special” wth “special” being things like 3 on 3s or tournaments. And since this is just a mockup right now, i’m not gonna program in tournament variables just yet)
[] Matches Per Set (Drop down menu, default of “2 of 3”, options of “1”, “2 of 3”, “3 of 5,” “5 of 7”)
[] Rounds Per Game (Drop down menu, default of “3”, options of “1, 3, 5, 7”)
[] Time Per Round (Drop down menu, default of “99”, “00, 30, 60, 99”)
[] Character Change Allowed? (Drop down, default of “no”, options are “Yes, no”)
[]Player 1 Handle (Checked against registered users)
[]Player 2 Handle (Checked against registered users)
[/LIST]
**
Actual Rounds, Sets, and Matches**
[LIST]
[] Set 1 (will auto populate based on above choices)
[] Match 1 (will auto populate based on above choices)
[] Round 1 (will auto populate based on above choices)
[] Player 1 Character (Drop Down, all characters, no default, required field)
[]***P1 Ultra Selected
[] Player 2 Character (Drop Down, all characters, no default, required field)
[]***P2 Ultra Selected
[] Winner (Drop down, “Player 1, Player 2, Draw”)
[] Win Type (Drop down, “Normal, Perfect, Timeout, Double KO”)
[]** Recorder Handle** (will be checked against user database)
[*]** Witness Handle ** (will be checked against user database)
[/LIST]

[LIST]
[] Round X (2, 3, 4, et all will all be auto created based on above choices)
[] Player 1 Character (Selected from Round 1 option above)
[] Player 2 Character (Selected from Round 1 option above)
[]** Winner** (Drop down, “Player 1, Player 2, Draw”)
[]** Win Type** (Drop down, “Normal, Perfect, Timeout, Double KO”)
[] Recorder Handle (Pulled from Round 1)
[*] Witness Handle (Pulled from Round 1)
[/LIST]

11

Hmm. Uh, I don’t understand how you understand it, lol. You have 1st place through whatever place. We probably won’t even go with the bracket system, and streamline it in Ray’s view. So you challenge people above you to gain ranks (just another word for placing). People below you challenge you for your place, and you defend. Easy stuff. We’ll keep copies of the ladder every month, and you can see its evolution over the course of the year. If you want to do a seasonal type thing, similar to Tournament Wars or something of that nature, go for it. It’s just, that’s different than my idea.

12

There was a listing of places being of a certain rank in your thread, and showing only 10 places or so per “rank” i’d assume that equates to “level”

To me, challenging for your placement on the ladder doesn’t accurately reflect who’s the best player is…just the one who happened to win. Fun for a small tournament or side thing, but not much long term. Again, this is just my opinion. And when we talk tonight maybe i’ll have a clearer understanding of what plans you have for the future of this method.

If it were me, i’d set this ladder up as a secondary event thing over the course of the season. Special event status, maybe a Local Bragging Rights ladder, where it’s an ongoing thing that allows people to play matches for that specifically. Each person has a limited amount of challenges they can issue per event, and there are X amount of events per season, allowing people to move up and down the ladder. the events for the ladder have their own point structure and are counted as Tournament style events when scored.

The problem is, if someone is in first place long term, they can be challenged by everyone, and eventually he’ll be out of challenge match slots. If he gets more challenges than the others, his points are skewed. Balance is key to provide accurate data, so as much as possible, point opportunities must be equally distributed. I can’t see a way of the 2 systems properly co-existing if the ladder matches earn points, so maybe if ladder is just used for fun/bragging rights…but long term, I don’t see the point in having 2 systems for ranking.

13

The flaw in getting points for “special wins/perfects/draws” screws up the rankings. Who is to say 2 buddy players won’t help each other get enough points (2 perfects) to push one of the over the top? Fail.

Keep it simple: Wins or losses only, if there’s a draw, replay the match!

Too much work keeping track how each and every round ended.

I think the rank ladder can be very accurate as long as stats (wins/loss) are taken. With this, we can see who loses to whom, and with what character.

14

Hey ray. I’ve already stricken the modifiers section, if you check out the rest of the thread. This isn’t solidified by any means…just an idea looking for good feedback.

The system can’t be easily manipulated by just 2 people. The setup would require a minimum of 4 participants (2 players, 1 recorder, 1 witness) to sign off on match results. It would take 4 people in cahoots to be able to rig a single session, and since there is a limited number of times each player can play each other player, the best they will get is either having one player dominate the other 3 (allowing 3 failed low tiered players), or having everyone trade matches equally, which doesn’t give any one person the advantage out of that group.

If someone tries to claim another person was there as a witness who actually wasn’t there, i can make the site email All match results to the admins and to each participant listed. Get an email verifying results when you weren’t there? We check the validity of the claim. Honest mistakes can be stricken and fixed. Anyone who tries to rig the system and gets caught gets banned.

This isn’t saying there aren’t possible flaws to the system…i’m sure there are, and i’m hoping people can point them out and offer solutions to improve the idea rather than try to shoot it down.

As for too much work, i put up the website data examples above.

EDIT

Here’s a visual example: http://srk.amurderofcrows.net/

You’ll note that unless there is a need to change from the default, the only things the recorder has to manipulate are:

[LIST]
[] Is Character change allowed during set?
[] Player 1 Handle
[] Player 2 Handle
[]Recorder Handle
[] Witness Handle
[] Player 1 Character for 1st round of 1st set (Will include ultras later)
[] Player 2 Character for 1st round of 1st set (Will include ultras later)
[] Winner of round (this field will come up again for each round)
[] How was it Won (this field will come up again for each round)
[]Verification before submission
[/LIST]

So, 10 things that will be manipulated by most of the users. In the ladder system, if they want good data they will need at least 5 of the items i put in (player 1, player 2, character 1, character 2, and winner). if there’s a check and balance witness system like what i’m thinking, the number increases to 7. Now, if there are special rules to the match at all, they can be addressed, but for the most part the regular season will all use the same timer and the same amount of rounds and matches per set.

I personally feel that accurate records about perfects, completes and time overs will be helpful for study and stats. Doesn’t matter much to a ladder, but will help with other things like cole and i were talking about. But i am in agreement that it should not count for additional points and as such was stricken.

the remaining two options left (can a character change between sets and verify the data before submission) are more for automation of the rest of the site. In a ladder system, the character change would be documented anyway automatically, and everyone should verify the information before it gets committed to public record.

The problem for me with accuracy of the ladder is that it doesn’t pit everyone against everyone. In the tournament, unless it is a round robin tourney to start, some players are going to get ranked low based on the fact that they lost to the first round opponent, regardless of the actual skill level that player has. The players do not all play in the same amount of matches either

Point is, tourneys won’t wait for people…but a flexible season will, and more data samples pulls out more accurate results.

15

OH MY GAWD.

we have 3~4 okay players. in oregon. that’s it.

this isn’t as necissary as just LEARNING HOW TO PLAY THE GAME WELL, panda is getting better but still gambles alot.

16

good point

17

I have a disease! ;_;

But yeah. What you described to me was a giant round robin + other crap. I think you should leave the other crap out and just run a big round robin if that is what you would like to do. +1 for a win, +0 for a loss, and redo on draws. There you go, that’s a nice system, especially with an easy online entering system where you list the players and witnesses and who won and who lost, which sounds like something you could whip up without too much trouble. Again, if it’s too complex, people won’t go for it. Jetay sounded a little turned off at Fatbear’s idea, and his was less complicated than yours by quite a bit (currently).

18

+1/+0 doesn’t help participation, so that’s out. point wise it’s going to be something more like +30/+10/+15 because i want all matches to count…equal playtime = better data. Just keep in mind that the idea of “complicated” is relative.

19

When peeps say it’s too complicated I dont think they mean it’s too hard to comprehend. It just means it’s too much work to keep track of it.

20

That’s the trick. it isn’t. Simply have the site open on a computer it can even be run offline in a modified format as the form can be generated and then emailed.

here’s are a pair of mock ups of the form:

http://srk.amurderofcrows.net/
http://srk.amurderofcrows.net/mockup2.html

It’s very rough, not very pretty, but it should get the basic idea across. once i have the layout right, i’ll work on making it look tight.

You’ll notice almost everything is already filled out with proper default values. When the site is finished, these defaults will be auto-filled per game selection, but you’ll still be allowed to change each one.

Once the 4 people’s names have been entered, you only need to select the following:

  1. Can a character change? Yes or No (this way we can allow random select matches to count as well)
  2. Player 1 character
  3. Player 2 Character
  4. Who won the round?
  5. How was the match won?

Currently the mock up isn’t finished, but when it is, a lot of the answers will carry over to the next match, such as each player’s characters. Also, if a sweep occurs (either round sweep or match sweep), the 3rd round or match won’t show up. I can’t program that in yet without java scripting, and i want to get a feel of what you guys think of the actual scorecard first.

EDIT:

Got to use the website tonight to record the Ladder ranking inaugural tourney.

Notes for improvement:

Once character has been selected, have “winner?” field pull character names in place of “Player 1” and “Player 2”. In cases of mirror matches, append “P1” or “P2” to each respective option.