Plateauing in ST/HDR

Have any of you got to the point yet where you’ve played your mains to the point where you don’t think you can go farther with them? I was just coming to this realization the other night. My two mains, Rog and Honda, I dunno, I think I’ve done just about everything I’m capable of doing with them but I still susceptible to the same shit I was two years ago (getting zoned hardcore and not taking maximum advantage of good situations).

I’m just trying to think about where to go from here. The only thing I can think of is to start getting into combo memorization (I suck at links so I usually stick to 2-3 hit combos) so I can actually punish dizzy’s instead of throwing or something.

And yes I’ve been practicing with other chars (Hawk/DJ), but they are nowhere near the level I have my two mains at. Discuss.

/ramble
/hangover

why are you giving up>?

if you’re still losing you still have things to learn.

I can relate to what your saying to an extent but I won’t go as far as to say that I’ve plateaued with my character. Actually, I feel like I’m still learning something new everyday. A big part of my learning comes from playing other players that have much more skill than me and have better reflexes. I learn, adapt and search for counters to strats and techniques that beat me.

I’ve had many encounters where I’ve been beaten pretty badly only to adapt and either make the next match more competitive or win outright.

There are many players that main the same character as you but not as many that are truly dedicated to fully understanding and implementing what your chosen character is capable of.

I main Blanka and I feel a real comfort level playing him even when I’m up against terrible matchups. That has everything to with me knowing that if I get that ONE chance, I will make the most of it and hopefully I will position myself to win the match.

Fancy combos are nice eye candy but most of the time they are not very practical in a fight vs two experienced players. Most characters have B&B combos that SHOULD be done to maximize damage on the chance you score a dizzy OR if suck at combos, you should try to use the dizzy opportunity to place your character in a position of advantage.

BTW, nice post studtrooper. Finally something interesting to read. :wink:

You should stop playing games for a while, and try coming back with a fresh mind.

It looks like you have some pretty bad habits to shake off though, tough break.

ST is all about the matchups! Go out there and find people who play characters that you aren’t that good against. The XBL and PSN forums on this site are a great place to start. “Learning” a character is easy, but learning a matchup can be difficult but it is the key to high level play. Also, don’t be afraid to discuss matches with the person you are playing afterward. Most of the people on this forum are more than willing to share information with you.

I never said I was giving up. If anything I am realizing the inevitability of my choice of characters. ST/HDR is probably the best game on the planet right now for me. I have no desire to stop now. I was just thinking about this and decided to share and see if anyone else has hit a wall like me.

For the record (aka for those that don’t play me often), I don’t suck and I’m not new to this. I think my win/loss record on HDR right now is like 300 to 25 or something.

Thank you sir. I don’t think I’ve gotten to play you on HDR yet (I think we last tango’ed on GGPO). This needs to happen!

Very interesting topic since I was thinking about this the other day. I by no means think I’ve reached my full potential with my main but find my improvement is slowing down and that I’m getting a lot better with my secondary characters to the extent I sometimes prefer them for certain match-ups.

I believe a lot in human potential but it takes a lot of hardwork and determination for people to reach there. It’s of course easier for some than others. Anyway I can pick apart my game with my characters and find match-ups, certain situations, combos etc that I can work on. I’m lucky enough to get advice; from videos featuring high level players, SRK and helpful people on xbox live.

You all know this, there’s a lot of psychology and reading your opponent involved and the more I play, the quicker I pick up on my opponent’s tendencies, style and ability. For example, if they can reversal reliably then I’ve got to stop using tick throws and change my game plan quickly. Sometimes I feel I’m not flexible enough in my playing style and it just comes with more and more practice.

By the way I’ve only been playing this for 3-4 months so perhaps you shouldn’t take too much notice of what I’m saying :sweat:

I worry about plateauing at a point where I’m not very good. It’s a scary thought. But I’ve got a long long long way to go (read: I suck mucho), so I shouldn’t worry.

The concept of plateau is not negative but if you feel you?ve reached the limit with your character, there in lays your problem. A plateau is an obstacle for some and contentment for others; comes down to how you perceive it. Im sure every great player has reached a plateau (Aniken to Valle) but its how they viewed that plateau that determined their adaption, growth, and perfection of their skill set. In my opinion there is no limit to how good you can become in ST/HD (besides mitigating factors like tier). Once you reach a certain level, and its been said before, you dont play your character you play your opponent. So maybe that plateau is how you perceive ST at a high level?? You said capitalizing on situations is your weak point, maybe thats an indicator of your need to improve you mental game? If thats the case, im in the same boat as you, and the only advice i can offer is playing more matches. Grill those that you lose too, ask them what and how they contain your character and what they fear in playing your character. Granted, you may already understand these things but actually getting it from someone else can offer a new perspective. I recall a talk with SweetJV and i realized alot, he said that the level of play for ST is astronomical, in a sense, there are players here who dominate (Valle, Afrolegends, Choi) but there are players in Japan who beat them pretty cleanly (Yuuvega, Otochun, ARG, Gian). Point being, even America?s best can reach a plateau?. Remember bro ?In the middle of difficulty lies opportunity.?-Einstein

The plateauing argument is a dangerous one for me. I play several characters, my main is Sim, my second is Blanka, and I dabble in Honda and Cammy. I have been playing for years… And it is sad to say I have clocked tens of thousands of matches, and I am still improving.

There are two discussion points I think that should be covered:

I am not trying to flame but feel the plateau argument is BS. :sweat: I am not going to let you get away with that! :wink:

Ppl make this statement out of the frustration of losing. If you?re losing to the same strategies, or finding you advancement halting, you may be looking SF from the wrong POV. Unless you win EVERY match there is always something that can always be improved upon.

Your improvement will always stagnate when you become complacent or accept the fact that you are not getting any better. I see many players losing site of the fact that as we get better at anything, there is a diminishing return in improvement per unit of time invested. Meaning if you want to improve, you?re going to need to infest more and more time.

Think of it as racing. To get a car to go 120 MPH, it doesn’t money or technology. To get a car to go 150, a basic stock model will not cut it, but small investment (money) in upgrades (technology) and a car can just hit that goal. To get a car to hit 185MP takes a huge invest of capital to piece together all the racing and custom parts needed to build/alter a vehicle to achieve those speeds. To get a vehicle to hit 200mph normally takes millions of dollars from a corporate sponsor, a team of technicians, crew, and well experienced driver. And that is ONLY to go 25% faster that a 268 HP Toyota Camry V6 sport, which you can buy for 30K.

I guess my point here is that once you?re good player, greater improvements will take much more time.

Now some players have already invested much time in the past, that very little investment is need now to improve b/c they can already beat 99% of the competition. But, many of these player are extra ordinary in some raw talent level, and have invested the time need to get better. (Choi, Valle, Wong, Cole, etc)

So hang in there. :tup: The improvement will come.

Secondly, I see player stagnation come from just playing the game and not the opponent. There is this GREAT poker commercial on TV for FullTiltPoker.com. Go here http://www.fulltiltpoker.com/commercials.php and watch the commercial by Howard Lederer: "I don?t need to see your cards." Watch it before reading on…This commercial captures exactly what I am trying to say. I bet you are still playing the game. You are thinking much more about what you are going to do, and which character the opponent has picked rather than thinking about the opponent themselves.

Decoy talked about this in his post. And Allex Valle talked about this in a Nohoho blog post. At some point you stop learning about how to play ST, and you start to learn how to play your opponent. You can never plateau on that topic.

In a set, I lose more frequently during the first round or match, to some random ass person doing the most inane BS. However, one I figure out the type of player that person is and how “THEY” play SF. I beat them many more times than they beat me. That is why you see good players go back and forth. They are constantly changing and adapting to each other. It is a dance, where the little movement of momentum change by an opponent, is almost instantaneously adapted too.

I think if you learn to play a player, you’ll see you game continually improve. Just like in weight training. Your body adapts to new stresses forced on it faster than the same old routines. Learn to continually introduce new stresses to your game that force you to learn and adapt to a variety of player types. Then I think you find the whole endeavor me bit more rewarding.

Anyway, I am not sure this help. But, it?s my 2 cents. Thanks for listening to my rant.
~fatboy

I agree with Syxx, in the sense that after you have learned a char, the next thing to learn is the specifics matchups. I dont think learn combos is that important to improve your game, cause you’ll not have opportunities to use them if your problem is to be zoned hardcore. You have to study ways to break the zoning, and I would search people that are good at zoning to play all the time, until you feel better playing in that situation.

Maybe you don’t have offline comp to compete against in Oregon? Honestly, if everything was online, I’d have no motivation to even bother trying either because I’d be uncertain whether what I was doing was applicable in real life against top tier comp (esp. with PSN’s lag) and have no goal to really strive for (since online play is great solely for practice).

And yeah, you definitely need to play as many matches as you can and against the best players for that character. Oftentimes, you forget the nuances of a matchup and need constant play to store your tactics into muscle memory. It doesn’t hurt to play against lots of players to get a sense of the different styles but ultimately you’ll see pretty much everything. At that point, you need to play against people who can best execute their own tactics and react to yours.

Playing average players won’t really help your play all that much (unless you switch to a secondary character to level him/her up instead). It’s similar to an RPG really; when you’re level 60, it’s hard to level up unless you beat some similarly high-level enemies and the tougher enemy, the more experience you get. Playing worse players may even make you rely on tactics that don’t work on better players.

As far as character selection, I think Honda is very dominant at mid-level but has very minute advantages that can be gained through further play. He’s limited by design so you’ve just got to execute with what you have and learn to outguess better to get past projectiles. On the other hand, there’s a lot to do with boxer’s TAPs so unless you’ve smoothly incorporate those into your gameplan, there’s more work to be done.

There’s a basic (and easy) 3-hit jumping combo for each of these characters; you need to at least master those to take advantage of dizzy situations. You can mess around with Honda’s other situational combos (since Kusumondo can apparently do them on the fly) but your time would probably be better spent dodging projectiles and nailing the oicho. Boxer’s combos into super are pretty useful if you can pull them off. But again, mastering the TAP is probably time better spent.

Anyway, everybody encounters these seeming plateaus at various points. But as with any puzzle, there’s a solution; it helps to know that others have obviously solved those parts that you haven’t and they aren’t blessed with any physical attributes you don’t possess. Just trudge on and play smarter.

Begin Super Post:

I know my matchups. I can’t tell you how many hours I’ve wasted at work watching youtube vids of japanese tournaments and whatnot :rofl:

I disagree. Against people who seriously know their shit (especially these Akuma players. Jesus.), I only get like 2 or 3 chances to get in. Sometimes I can do enough damage but other times I just feel like I threw a nerf football into a tidal wave. Then I watch people like Afrolegends jump-in combo into super with Balrog and I just think, “damn, I need to learn that shit”.

@fatboy: That “yomi” thing is definitely something I need to work on. If I get to play people more than once or twice I can kind of get a gameplan down but I feel I should probably be learning quicker than that.

I’d like to play you sometime too. I think I saw you on GGPO back in the day but you always were in the middle of a match or something.

Hahahahah. Yeah, this state sucks for comp. No arcades or real tourneys except in Portland. I plan on moving back to my home state (Cali) in a year or two so that won’t be a problem much longer. Even so, with GGPO/XBL I’ve played against people like Damdai/DVG/DSP/Valle/Graham/Sabin, etc so I don’t think my time online has been a total loss. True it ain’t real life, but what can you do?

I think I’ve been running into this. Ever since I stopped playing on GGPO/2DF for HDR I’ve played a shit-ton more crappy people compared to good people. For the good of my game, I’m probably going to stop playing ranked (where it is like 20 scrubs to 1 good person) and just scout for good player rooms.

Will do.

Now I understand your point, sorry for the inapropriate advice. I often do that at my job too ;)… I still feel that combos are good, but not THAT important cause I think the dexterity is the most difficult thing to improve once you’ve reached a plateau. I am no good with combos too - like Shaquille O’Neal with free throws, I feel - and I try to play around it.

I agree 100% with fatboy though, play the opponent is the ultimate skill in SF2 and always there will be room for improvement there and it’s where I focus my game now. But I’m not that good, and always feel I’m improving.

Just more thing I’d like to add…

Part of stepping your game up is to better control the mental aspect of your play. For example… In the past, whenever I would get challenged by a top player like Valle, I would get very nervous and I would have lost my match before it even started.

NOW, If I get challenened by Valle or whomever, I tell myself, I’m seriously gonna smack this kid! Oh no he didn’t just challenge my Blanka! lol I usually get beat-up anyway but I am fearless I tell you!!! haha

This is my biggest weakness at the moment. Against someone new, I’m usually very happy with my performance. But as soon as I see a big name that I recognise, I go into a slapping frenzy because I’m so nervous about proving myself. Sometimes you need one or two beers, just to take the edge off it :sweat:

It’s not just Street Fighter - I used play Dawn of War a lot, and as soon as I saw a big name on the loading screen, I’d freak out and completely forget build orders, to the point where the match is a lost cause in the opening seconds.

To add to the conversation, I feel that your skill with your main can even decrease over time if you’re not playing the right people. If I go a few nights in a row against very poor players, I pick up terrible habits - over using HHS for example, usually to bring the cicus act of a match to an end sooner. I then have to work twice as hard to shake the terrible habits when I finally run into some decent players.

I’m having this problem with Balrog.
But honestly i think its because i’m on pad.
…and still waiting for the next TE sticks to come out.

I can only jab Neg-Edge on pad, and that sucks for people that like jumping away to throw fireballs.

As someone who used to be a pad-faithful, I can tell you my game improved tremendously once I learned how to use a stick. Night and day difference.

I assume everybody I play online is really good.

I notice whenever i play someone with a phenomenal Barlog, for some reason i can’t use him right for awhile.