It’s funny how you and i have such opposing views on a lot of gameplay related aspects. So you want lights being able to cancel into specials completely gone then, okay.
It most likely comes from the games we’re coming from. For example, you’ll notice that both Louis and me have 3rd Strike backgrounds.
3s people thinking that reactions are the “only” difference between scrubs/weak players and better ones…
Which is mystifying… They complain about jab into special confirms cause of million and one years to confirm and don’t want to be defensively jabbed out of pressure and simultaneously confirmed into combo, so they do a hell of a lot of convoluted thinking into asking for that tactic specifically not to be in… That tactic being jab mashed on by scrubs.
Whereas my thinking goes something like:
Why do you need help to beat scrubs.
And I’m pretty LOL after that. It’s like me asking for help beating mashers. Yeah they can be annoying…but since they are mashers… They are easily beaten.
Same goes for jab defensive players. It it’s so scrubby… Then it should be super easy to beat.
I’ll throw them a bone and say that not everything that is scrubby is easy to beat. But in this case, that’s not what’s happening. Jab mash on sf5 (with or without timing) is easy as hell to frame trap and beat.
So calls of (hit confirming in 2 hits is scrubby) fall on deaf ears for me. It sounds to me like players that are highly reactive want a tool to beat players that are more read based and less highly reactive.
It’s like executional players wanting extra tools to beat non executional players.
Laughable.
Yes, lets all degenerate this argument into ad hominems, forgetting the fact that in most Street Fighter’s not numbered IV, you never really got much out of jabs. This wasn’t just because anyone mashing jabs was easily punished, rather it was because the system prevented it. SF2 for example, removed the special cancel properties of any chained crouching or chained standing lights, and similar restrictions have been in place in other games as well (even IV had this, except that plinking made it moot). Anything that did otherwise (e.g. Ken being able to short, short, super) was usually a notable exception (or a link).
The profound effect that this had in gameplay is that the game ends up being best played at medium normal ranges. Take for example Alpha 2, why get up close with characters like Chun or Rose when it’s better to stay just outside the range of their low forward or low strong respectively.
Another thing, there was less frame trapping to deal with lights in prior SFs, simply because there was less use of lights. Most of the time, if someone wanted to get out of pressure and deal substantial damage, they’d have to stick out a medium or a heavy attack, not a light. It made sense in a way, if you wanted to get out of pressure, then you could just try a fast, safe light. If you wanted to actually deal substantial damage and/or gain positional advantage, then you’d have to risk a medium or a heavy.
Since you play Skullgirls, I’m sure you’re familiar with Mike Z’s “reversals should be hard” philosophy. The above ties into this because, in the greater scheme of things, mashing lights in between gaps in pressure is much easier than timing something like a low forward. The fact that you can chain 2 into a special cancel also plays into this since it’s now an easy hit confirm. Now before you say “Skullgirls allows combos off lights”, you have to consider that these are two different games, in the context of Street Fighter (which doesn’t allow the same kind of insane pressure as Skullgirls), mashed light hit confirms in between blockstrings are easy, especially in relation to the work the attacking player needs to do to create pressure.
I whole heartedly (and respectfully) disagree with what you are saying dev.
Read what I said in the hitconfirm thread. I’ve said it MANY times on this forum and my point basically always gets ignored:
THERE ARE JAB HITCONFIRMS IN BASICALLY EVERY STREETFIGHTER.
Some more powerful than others. But jab confirm certainly isn’t a rarity in streetfighter like some of the posts that you make seem to be trying put forward.
In oldschool streetfighter of the variety of “not sf3” there are basically 2 kinds of characters with respect to confirms:
Those that have weak attack confirms… Usually but not always because they have unsafe on block or highly gapped specials and therefor need confirms so they don’t destroy themselves on block.
And those that don’t have weak attack confirms, but INSTEAD have safe on block specials… So they literally
DONT EVEN HAVE TO CONFIRM. They just autopilot things like medium xx kikoken/sonic boom/fireball/max out or dreadkicks.
And I also highly highly highly disagree with your premise that jabbing out in oldschool isn’t done (because jabs are bad) It’s actually not done because mediums on oldschool are SO GOOD, but more because blockstun is huge in oldschool and frame trapping normals is easy and because oldschool throws are 0 frame, they grab people OUT OF JABS and many times have throws HAVE MORE RANGE THAN JABS. So you can do things like weak x4 on block with deejay and be out of the opponents jab range yet still be in throw range or walk up throw range.
I don’t think any of what I said above is ad hominem. I just think that you want to take a dismissive stance to my arguments because they refute your arguments.
I mean, I understand where you are coming from to a certain extent. But pls stop saying things like “this didn’t happen in oldschool” I learned on oldschool and these things certainly applied.
Instead use the argument of “I just like it this way” (for whatever reason) or whatever. But you trying to justify your stance via out and out misinformation is plainly bad.
Yeah Chun and rose stayed at range (more Chun than rose) but rose did have a confirm and it lead to a knockdown and solid damage and was a big reason for any rose player to get in. Same with sak.
I just feel like if you want to argue against jab confirms for whatever weird reason, you should also be arguing for SAFE ON BLOCK SPECIALS. Since this is mostly what oldschool was about, but is highly absent form sf5.
It’s literally like asking for the car without the gas to make it go.
The thing is, we’re dealing with a design that is more like 3rd Strike, where throws are not 0 frame. There are less things that punish lights in the base design, more so now in V that we don’t have universal parries, kara throws, and the priority system.
And even if we did get safe specials, I’d still argue against confirms off lights because of how much more like 3S the design is this time.
Dieminion brought up in his DTN interview that the fast dashes and certain other elements of the game made it feel 3S to him. Dunno if that’s mostly coincidence, but I guess in some ways SFIV took some of the elements of 3S and then just rearranged them to make it fit in a new engine. I’m pretty sure part of the reason why we have slower walk speeds to begin with is because of the dash mechanic which forces them to reassess how much walk speed they should give someone in relation to their dash. Whereas in a game without dash it would be more imperative to just give everyone quicker walk speeds like in 2 or Alpha. I do like how Ryu’s dash is quicker like his 3S dash. Can set up those old school dash up 2 times throw games like back then.
Yeah, there’s definitely no way they’re going back to less than 4 frame throws. Especially if they want to game to be focused heavily on counter hits. Seems they just want throws to be hard to tech to add enough fear for teching wrong or getting counter hit without them being the main way to get people off block. They still want to force a very counter hit driven pressure game which is reminiscent of CVS2 or SFIV. Just still not a big fan of the some of the block stun rules.
To me the game is very like 3S but without Parries, everyone has a Mexican Uppercut, and everyone has a gimmick super/status thing.
They should go back to the way 3s did trials, ie, give the trial a short description about when and where the combo is useful.
3SOE trials weren’t useful and didn’t describe when to use the combo. You might be referring to another game. Pretty much every 3S player hated the trials. The trials for Alex in 3SOE including Stun Gun combos… That say’s everything.
The only chance for trial combos being useful is they DLC in combos that people have found in videos or start using in matches after the game launches. Throwing in shit that they just know randomly works that spends a lot of resource and is overly specific in range/timing on day one won’t net you much overall.
They’re going to need to get the communities help as the trial combos should be combos that you’d want to use in an actual match. Not just concept/freak combos.
Why? Combo challenges are just that: challenges. If they are going to show you useful BnBs in a real match then leave it for a tutorial; where it should actually be used to explain BnB situations like frametrapping confirms, low confirms, safe confirms etc. I actually want combo challenges to actually be challenging. Like Karins later challenge should at least be like c.MP, s.MP xx EX Shoulder, walk forward LK Mujinkyaku, EX Launcher, EX Shoulder. If the last challenge is gonna be c.MP, s.MP, JF Launcher, JF Launcher i will scream.
The thing is, other games have shown that they can teach you useful combos in combo challenges/trials.
I’m just saying they should follow a similar format. It’s true that the combos weren’t always all that useful but the idea was good in theory.
One more thing: make Bison’s downfoward+HP move an actual overhead. It’s retarded that it isn’t an overhead.
Safe on block, let’s you combo, chases down back techs, moves you forward while keeping down charge, CCH…
It’s pretty fucking respectable as is; I don’t think the retarded between you two is the move.
Slow as fuck, not an overhead, unsafe (I think), not as good of a Crush Counter as st.HK. You could just as well use st.HP which is safe at max range and combo into HK Scissors and comes out a little faster.
It’s a pointless move.
It was -1 and catches at a way better range than St.hp plus you can hit confirm into a combo. St.hp is -11 and HK SK is -5, and there are quite a few moves that don’t give a damn if you space St.hp. It’s got the best range of any normal move in his arsenal and I believe you can VTC it. It isn’t something you toss out randomly but you can use it after a mid range knockdown to hit meaty (you’re now plus) and get some pressure on where before you’d have returned to neutral.
So again, not the move that’s retarded here.
You can VTC his st.HP too. And if you do his downfoward+HP you have to be a little close in order to land the cr.MP and even still it’s kind of tight to land. I was under the impression that HK was plus, seemed that way when I was playing, I could be wrong. And currently it’s not a great option after a knockdown because (1) everyone is going to quickrise (2) it’s still slow af and (3) when dudes quickrise they’re going to hit buttons and hit him out of it or trade.
It’s not a great move right now. All I’m asking for is it to become an overhead and maybe be a few frames faster. It would be a nice compensation for his horrible walk speed.
It beats wake up jab quick rise I believe off of a back throw and puts you in perfect whiff punish range if you don’t walk forward. You also get a meaty off of a back tech which is way more popular and hard to deal with.
But your changes would make the most broken move in the game. Overheads are almost all 19f+ and -6 on block but for Ryu (17f, -4 I think as of B1), Chun (26f, 0), and Birdie (special case).
VTC also lets you keep pressure on block thanks to moving you forward while St.hp doesn’t.
Again, it isn’t a move that you toss out randomly. Use it when you think they’ll walk forward into it where no other move would hit and be safe on block. Use it to chase knockdowns. Don’t use it in stand up pressure situations.