But Captain may not get the chance to touch Magnus ever again after that first time. If he doesn’t kill, Magnus effectively has a longer lease on life than he would in a normal damage setting. Whereas, Magnus’ mobility and tools make resets always an option - we’ve seen the Magnus American reset combo drops enough on stream for this. You drop a Captain combo - well good luck getting that second hit.
Using more resources is a problem because of the slow meter build - those having long extended combos like Magnus build what is essentially more meter, thus having access to more resources. Captain’s combos don’t build as much meter because he doesn’t have a million :h: or s to extend with - he’s scary because he hits hard and has a decent neutral game. Low damage gets rid of the first and he’s forced to spend more meter that he already doesn’t build as much of to kill off.
I dunno if I phrased it correctly, but the point being - as Captain you don’t want to reset if you can help it. Your goal is to kill them off asap because you hit hard. As Magnus, the reset is more affordable because you aren’t dependent on a reserve amount in order to kill - and knowing you’re going to build more meter than he is if you hit him.
Someone didn’t pay attention during probability and stats.
All the top tiers aren’t top tier because of their damage, first of all. They have great options, most of which deal with opening people up, getting that hit. It’s why Hulk and Haggar aren’t at the top even though they can one shot basically everyone.
Now if you lower the damage, none of the tools change, just the damage done. Zero will still have his stupid ass sword and lightning loops, which means he’ll be even better because he’ll still be able to 1 hit kill while everyone else is working harder. Magneto will still be opening people up easily because he’s hard to block to begin with. Poor Hulk/Haggar who have to work so hard to get that 1 hit that use to be rewarded with a kill now might need 2 hits.
Let’s just assign percentages to the likelihood of Hulk opening you up let’s say it’s 20%. Say he has to do that twice 20% first time, 20% the second time. Those aren’t good odds 4%. A character that has a low probability of opening someone up right now would have it even worse if they needed to get 2 openings.
I already adressed this. If Captain touches Magnus first, drops, his combo, or goes for a reset - he can still one touch Magnus at any point! That doesn’t change with 10% lower damage! But in regards to Magnus it does! His resets might be better - but they’re still a gamble and he *has *to go for them at 10% less damage.
Magnus needs to build the meter to do his damage. It’s not even as significant as it was in Vanilla. Captain doesn’t build as much meter because he does more raw damage.
I don’t see this changing with lower damage. The strategies simply scale in terms of their efficiency but not their usefulness. A 30%, more drastic, decrease might effect worse characters in a negative way.
Probability is a state of partial information. You choose to ignore the human player factor in your arbitrary numbers to further your point, so I’ll point out real probability takes into account that Zero having to execute a lighting loop for a longer duration increases the probability that he’ll drop it and that people will become better at blocking Magnus in the future through experience. Just for example. Oh, and with only a 10% decrease Hulk/Haggar should still be able to kill a character like Mags with one hit.
edit
Oh, and if people here can’t even recognize blunt sarcasm when they see it get the fuck off the internet. Seriously. If you think I was insulting Marvel with the “it plays it self” statement, you’re a fucking moron that isn’t following the conversation and you’re doing me a favor putting me on your ignore list.
No you didn’t. On normal damage - Captain touches Magnus = Dead Magnus.
Low damage - Captain touches Magnus = ???Maybe not dead Magnus. With WORSE resets, what makes you think he’s just as likely to get another hit on Magnus before he gets opened up? Oh 10% less damage - yeah, it’s the same problem that you’ll give Cap which already happens with Iron Man and Chun Li - takes too much work to get results. Magnus doesn’t care, he has superior resets and can open you up anyway. When he doesn’t have to worry about getting OHKO’d by Captain, risk-reward is even more skewed in Magnus’ favour.
The damage means little if you can’t OHKO. Captain will have less meter if he hits you with one combo than Magnus doing the same. Given that both will need to hit you twice to kill… essentially Magnus will have more meter and Captain will have less - giving Magnus even more utility.
Why is 30% ‘drastic enough’ where 10% isn’t? There are many combos that just barely OHKO, but they’re effective because they still achieve the end result. Taking an 850K OHKO combo and taking 10% off is 765K - and will have Magnus alive and kicking whereas he would have been out of the picture on normal damage and lessened your headache and ‘chance’ to die. This is drastic enough. I don’t know where you get 30% from.
quite simply put: lowering the overall damage increases the disparity between tiers whereas a 3/5 set would provide a better idea as to who the better player actually is. i couldn’t have said it any better than otter with the captain america/magneto metaphor regarding why a damage decrease wouldn’t work. anybody can win a single game by luck, but winning two games by luck alone is difficult. getting by on luck with three wins is even more difficult, and if it fits in the same timeslot (or per Keits, takes less time) as other similar games, then i think a 3/5 set would be a better overall fit for UMvC3.
With even a 10% reduction in the damage settings that’s going to add at least one extra with meter combo that damage starved characters will need to kill even average health characters. I mean I know he can open people up pretty well but I’d rather not have to hit Magneto 3 times with Firebrand spending meter on each combo in order to kill him.
The word you’re looking for is ‘blatant’ not ‘blunt’.
Sam’s club already does back to back lightning loops. Do you really think Zero player won’t be able to get “TK Dragon PunchxN” down?
And there are limits to human reaction time. Magneto has unreactable high/low mixus and crossups with assists. Just because you get better at blocking against a certain player (by catching on to habits such as “he likes to do the fake high->low a lot”), doesn’t mean that you’re actually better at blocking what is supposed to be a true 50/50.
If human beings are all assembly line machinery made of standard parts, why are we even bothering with fighting game tournaments?
It’s Magneto’s air dash that’s hard to react to, not the mixups (the circumstance in which he chooses to employ the Air Dash to make you guess). I find a few things disagreeable here, but I’m not going to bother. Obviously, I’m alone on this.
More case in point stuff about 3/5 matches as far as the lack of time actually spent normally in UMVC3 (although it’s not really necessary but fuck it).
[media=youtube]bG87K6pTGlo[/media]
[media=youtube]fi8pHqJIeGo[/media]
In the first video you see a 2/3 match set of CVS2. Steve H won both games but it took him nearly 8 minutes to win both matches. If Buktooth won the second match you’d be looking at an 11 to 12 minute 2/3 match of that game. This game was played regularly at tournaments for years regardless.
In comparison to the video below of grand finals of UMVC3. By the time 8 minutes had gone by, FOUR matches were already played and Toki won the set and reset 3 to 1. 8 minutes in and pepole are ready to RESET grand finals. As opposed to waiting to play the 3rd match or just getting done with 2 matches.
WTF…let’s try KOF13…
[media=youtube]AEyovMFLNZE[/media]
[media=youtube]sEPitAeRXH0[/media]
Same situation as CVS2. Nearly 8 minutes goes by for BALA to win 2 games straight. The other match is a full on 2/3 that goes on for 11 to 12 minutes.
WTH…let’s throw SFIV in there also
[media=youtube]FqpD2pScSMo[/media]
9 minutes for 2/3? Looking mad CVS2/KOF there.
[media=youtube]JhLmdzxd3dQ[/media]
Even in AE where people are more comfortable with the game…looking at near 7 minutes 2/3’s.
I think that’s pretty compelling evidence that Marvel would go from taking less time to taking about as much as any other major FG if the scene went 3/5, which is a good thing IMO. I guess the one thing that TO’s would have to consider is how to compensate for the marginal increase in tourney time, but I’m sure they would figure out how to adapt quickly. Also, (as a lower tier player) it would be nice to get more play time in a tournament setting as you get a guaranteed 6 games, instead of 4. It’s a little hard to justify going to tourneys to get blown up in 7 minutes unless there are enough casual stations (and people who want to play with you) to shell out travel costs and venue fees. We have a casual tournament here and I’ll do some research on the time it takes things to progress to verify what DJ found, but I’m pretty sure the videos he presented are actually a good representation of what is occurring.
Regarding the lower damage, I think the biggest boon is that it makes more strategies viable (which I’m always a fan of) simply because people will be more inclined to take risks instead of basically always fearing getting ToD or being put into such a negative situation that the game is nearly decided ( i.e. lvl. 4+ Frank via TAC and before it was removed PW invincible assist). I’m no expert but I would imagine most games require you to open up the opponent 4 - 8 times in order to win the round. In Marvel, taking one character out gives you a free offensive mix-up on the incoming character, which is pretty brutal in terms of cascading effects (especially since you can create true multiple mix-ups on the opponent, or even true impossible to block through situations (i.e. Firebrand + lockdown) . Also, I like the idea of needing to reset someone 2 or 3 times to kill them simply because it makes it that having one combo (which the strategy the vast majority of players use unless they are stylin’) is far less dominate as you need to devote more time in the lab coming up with combos that naturally lead into resets and enough of them to keep your opponent from getting away by abusing one escape tactic.
If the damage is lowered, the characters with good mixups get comparatively better, because they can still get a lot of hits. Someone like Iron Fist arguably has the hardest time getting a hit out of anyone in the game, and if he can’t kill someone off of that hit, it makes him tremendously worse.
Hulk and Zero and Strider. Hulk and Zero can kill you in one combo. Zero and Strider both have really good mixups. If we lower the damage so that there are not OHKOs anymore (Which seems to be what people are arguing for), then Hulk becomes much less viable and Zero’s strength skyrockets, because he can still kill you in one combo because his combos go on forever (Not literally, but you get the idea). So Hulk can’t get hits ORkill in one combo, Strider can still get hits and can’t kill, but Zero can get hits and can kill. It just makes everything worse. And it you will say “Well, we won’t lower the damage THAT much”, then that defeats the purpose of lowering the damage in the first place.
I try not to be rude, but really. If you can’t understand my argument, you have bigger problems than an argument on the internet.
The main problem with lowering the damage is that most of the cast only has fightable matchups vs. Zero because he dies in one combo. Zero is not the type of character that becomes competitively fair anymore if he doesn’t die when you hit him.
Nah Zero is that much better than basically all of them with higher damage with more hits to kill he would definitely get into the realm of unfair. This is also considering Zero is the hardest to consistently juggle of all of those characters due to how lite he is and how small his hurtbox is.
Zero is just not designed in a way gameplay wise where he should be doing anything but dying after being hit. He covers way too many bases and does too many things on his own that other characters need assists to do.
Quote fixed. Didn’t realize I had included everything. Sorry about that
I don’t think anyone is arguing that certain characters will benefit from a reduction in damage versus others. As I stated, it would shift the focus from extending combos to (potentially based on how big the damage decrease is) creating more reset situations but there will always be characters (Zero as you pointed out) who will have really high damage simply because of their combo ability.
I’m not entire sure about that. Many of the “bruiser” characters (i.e. Hulk, She-Hulk, Nemesis, etc) in this game actually have very powerful reset options (Nemesis Tenticle Slam strategies, She-Hulk has near impossible to escape resets with assists, Hulk’s command throw + hyper does 450,000 (which is really good damage for a throw combo). Also, Many of Hulks combos can easily do over 1.1 mi so long as there is corner carry (which isn’t too hard for a good Hulk), with 1 assist (which shouldn’t be an issue since he is mainly a point), using only 1 bar of meter (again, generally built in one combo) and are relatively short (important since you don’t need to worry about hit stun deterioration). With a 10% damage reduction, that drops to 1 mil, which is enough to K.O. a very sizable portion of the cast. Also, if you do a command throw reset (remember you get both your assists when going for a reset), that would be over 1.4 million which K.O’s anyone. I don’t know about the other bruisers as I’ve never really messed around with them, but I would imagine they probably have high damage potential.
s to extend with - he’s scary because he hits hard and has a decent neutral game. Low damage gets rid of the first and he’s forced to spend more meter that he already doesn’t build as much of to kill off.