Parrying / Just Defense / Guard Impact / Pushblock / GTFO equivalent thread

Current Fighting Games Fighting Game Discussion
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Couldn’t really find a thread that covered such a broad range as what I wanted to go for with this so here we go. This is basically to cover and talk about technical differences between parrying in 3S, CVS2, CFJ, Just Defense as it is in CVS2 as opposed to Garou MOTW, Guard Impacting as it will eventually be in SCIII and as it is in SC2, and basically the differences and similarities between these various techniques involving swatting away an opponent’s attacks and how learning the timing in one can improve timing in another and vice versa. The idea behind this spawned the other day when I was noticing the timing for super fireball parrying in CFJ for characters from SF3 and how it seemed to be remarkably similar in terms of timing to CVS2’s parrying as opposed to the game the characters originated from.

To sort of broaded perspective on this, anyone who’s seen jchensor’s Fun With CFE video at this point, note specifically the moment where Alex parries the initial hit of Demitri’s EX fireball, hops back, parries again, hops back, parries again. Would this indicate that the timing for this is so different from, say, Shin Akuma’s three hit fireball, that the two are different? I haven’t tried doing this in CVS2 yet but I imagine with the right groove this may be possible there too.

This also of course brings to mind the fact that in SF3 to parry Chun Li’s Houyoku Sen ( SA2 ) you have to parry the initial hit immediately before the flash. Given that in CVS2 it has a faster startup I’d like to eventually note the difference in timing; granted, to generalize, I believe that 3s is more lenient in terms of timing than CFE/J or CVS2 are as far as parrying because the exact hit frames seem more sparse than they are in 3s. For example, the other day I managed to parry all but the final two hits of Oro’s EX Yagyou Dama on a forward mash after having only seen it full-parried all of two times. I imagine sheer luck could explain most of it, but there just seems to be lenience towards the input to tech bonus. Same with Remy’s SA1: Although there is a distinct rhythm, something along the lines of 1,2, gap, 1,2, gap, 1,2,3, I’ve seen people parry it by simply mashing forward. Whereas I’ve never seen Chun-Li’s SA2 parried by luck…or Dudley’s Rolling Thunder for that matter. It may simply be chalked up to the SA’s themselves.

K-Groove as opposed to P-Groove seems to give distinct advantage in terms of the more relaxed nature of going into a natural block animation for the first hit of the move and then rhythmically canceling the remaining hits of whatever the character is Just Defending. It seems at times that even if the Just Defense is mistimed the character will only incur chip damage, at least in my experience ( the majority of the time. there have been other times where I don’t fare so well ). And I know that MotW and CVS2 are drastically different games, but after seeing Burningfist Just Defend Hotaru Futaba’s entire P-Power at the Otakon Garou finals I’m pretty sure that we’ll find some intrinsic similarities.

Speaking of similarities I’ve noticed a weird parallel between Sagat throwing a Tiger Cannon and watching the other person start to parry it only to walk up and land a Fierce and in 3s where Urien will throw a Temporal Thunder and wait for parrying to begin before launching an EX Chariot Rush. I’d love to have someone detail scenarios for the parry / just defense timing it would require to negate ALL of Urien and Sagat’s offenses in these situations.

Anyhoos, to start off, I was recently reading up on how certain supers will “stop time” ( like Chun SA2 ) and for how many frames they do so, and it’s interesting to note that in CVS2 the level of super launched increases the number of frames that the “time stop” effect will freeze for. It’d be interesting to note the hardest supers to predict parry timing for in relation to this fact.

This is all just food for thought, feel free to add your two cents. :tup: I’ll add more later, gotta go try some of that Ultimate Guard nonsense…oh yeah, and feel free to add stuff about parry differences in relation to hitbox and wakeup animation.

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You should try to hunt down some of the old lemmings.net, I think that was the site, 3S vids. They did some crazy shit like parrying normals mid parrying Akumas Messatsu Gou Hado, and thats match play not tutorials.

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I’m trying to remember if that’s where the Total Parry Exhibition video came from. I know there’s one where the player using Akuma pretty much parries every SA in the game…

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Where can I find these vids?

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It’s possible, I might actually have the matches still on old CDs I burned. I hope I have them still, all this talk about them reminded me how good they are.

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The Fun With CFE vid is in the hall of fame at combovideos.com. I actually saw the Sagat Tiger Cannon to Fierce thing in the justdefend.com VCD trailer.

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I have that vid, thanks. No, sorry, the lemmings.net vids.

I find the JD easier to use in Garou than I do parrying in 3s. I’m not sure on the mechanics of Garou, whether it being more lenient or not, but I find my self timing it much better.

With red parrys in 3s, I find timing the low hit of Q’s SA1 harder than the likes of the last hit of chunli’s SA2. God knows why like I just do.

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JD is a lot safer, you don’t commit yourself nearly as much as you do in 3S.

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So we can talk about Tekken parries and other games also?

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well i’ve been practicing CVS2 at home, trying to see if there’s any differences between parry and JD. IMO, it seems that accomplishing a JD requires one to block before the actual hit registers in the hit box whereas the parry requires timing the forward movement just when it hits directly. is it just me? i don’t know…maybe i’m not paying enuff attention or the fact that i’m still a n00b at the game (if only i had a better arcade stick).

regarding guard impact…i’d have to say that it’s a great technique to master in SC2, but for some reason it’s hard to pull off a special move after the GI is done. it takes maybe 1-2 seconds to recover from a GI at which time i’ll probably just mash a random attack button. who knows…maybe i’m not doing something correctly…

not much for me to say about 3S though…since my $5 xbox arcade stick isn’t compatible with SFAE i’m unable to play the game (which also forced me to have to return the game to the store…)

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What’s guaranteed off a low parry in Tekken 5? Does the frame advantage differ depending on whether you’re parrying a low punch or kick?

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As I understand it, pretty much every character gets a launcher off of a low parry in T5. Everyone for sure gets SOMETHING, and I think everyone gets a launcher, but I’m no Tekken expert.

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I can tell you that there are really good followups like with Heihachi’s low parry followup being DF+1,2 to a juggle of your choosing, and if you’re able to land Wang’s counter where he outstretches his hand there’s guaranteed followups.

And yes, Tekken talk is a-okay. :tup:

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The thing you experienced with Remy’s SA1 parrying is the fact that some fireballs are considered hitting simultaneously aka the same time, so only one parry is needed for the game to register both projectiles being parried, even though the game shows two parrys… This example can also be seen in CvS2 and Kyosuke’s cross cutter when it is still considered two projectiles, just parry once for both attacks, although I think it only shows one parry animation for that.

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Twelve’s SAI is a wierd one. I parried it off by only pressing right twice. It could be because it goes through you but I’m not too sure but it’s 6 hits I think. I just mashed the direction and parried it by accident.

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If you’re talking SC2 you can’t forget 2G. Also if you’re having trouble inputting shit you shouldn’t, just remember your GI window is open for like 8 frames and you get +31/37 (I can’t remember they reset the sc.com boards) afterwards. Of course you now have to learn 2G which is a technique involving holding guard and tapping 2 something like 3 frames before impact. This breaks whatever stun you’re in (GC/GI whatever) and allows you to block. All of a sudden your opponent is stuck with block recovery not GI animation (note: block recovery=you can do nothing but break throws, being GIed = you can still defend with GI or 2G). Now at this point in time if you feel like going really advanced you can use JFCs (just frame chickens) It’s a really tight JF that involves performing an attack then a second attack with your second attack being GIed. You buffer 3B+G or 3A+G at some point and instead of being GIed you end up performing a throw. It’s escapable but quite surprising. A common setup for example is perform a GC move have it blocked then perform a 35i/36i move that’s telegraphed baiting a GI. Note: you can’t 2G lows or throws.

There you have it: SC GI mechanics involving GI, 2G and JFC.

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GI in SC2 is terrible …the window is TOO BIG.

Good thing Namco is going back to what worked with the parry engine from the original SC.

I’m also anxious to see how this “prefect” gi will play out. Supposedly if you dont pGI back after getting pGIed your ass is about to eat something nasty.

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WOW. Awesome stuff man, thanks. I gotta experiment with this, especially with Asta!

Here’s some more food for thought, let’s keep this thread moving strong!

I’ve noticed that in most matches waking parries on super fbs are horrifically impossible. The close proximity of a super fb to hitbox on wake is just damn near inescapable by some characters due to the fact that their sprite goes forward a few pixels extending their hitbox for the parry animation ( like Vice, for example ). This also brings to mind the well-known 3s technique with Ryu of canceling a successful DP hit into Denjin Hadouken and charging up until the released fireball will impact the active hitbox right as the wakeup animation is finishing. Same concept can be applied with super fbs in CvS2, only the parrying there with sparser frame hit timing is MORE difficult, so super fb’ers seem to have the advantage over P-Groove users in this instance. I understand that a lot of Aegis Reflector traps also involve wakeup traps as well.

And to cosign on GI in SC2, yeah, it seems like GI is definitely intended to be used sparingly for the sheer amount of punishment you can be dealt should you whiff a GI whilst getting faked out by, say, Voldo or Ivy’s numerous mixup options. Same with Burst in #R - it seems like some players will just pointlessly blow their Burst the minute they get it when they see someone going into an offensive option. ( Example: Testament eats Potemkins cr. HS, Bursts in air, gets hit with Heavenly Potemkin Buster ).

Parrying within itself seems designed to create offensive spacing while Just Defense seems more aligned with getting out of a defensive hitch. Witness justdefend.com’s Double Cyclone JD into Super Soul Fist for an example. An interesting thing that was poised to me by a colleague was that apparently in Guard Break mode in KOF Neowave, Just Defense remains active from the first hit of a super or multi-hitter until the last as opposed to CVS2 or Garou MOTW where you have to JD each hit frame. Is this true? Because this seems like kind of a copout as opposed to doing it Garou / 3s style and negating each blow individually and sequentially and would take no skill, it seems.

This brings to mind fake-ables, too, like Yun’s fake palm thrust with two punches and Ken’s feint RH. I imagine training an opponent to expect those and then doing something completely different i.e. d.MK, DP xx Shippu Jinrai Kyaku, or just a throw, would put you in the driver’s seat.

Once in MvC2 I pushblocked my way out of a Sonic Hurricane, thereby negating chip damage and giving me a Proton Cannon. I thought that was pretty funny; anybody else got anything like that for MvC?

Also, feel free to bring up character specific GTFO techniques, like, who was it with the icon where Eagle’s DP is used to reflect Kyosuke’s lvl. 3 Super Cross Cutter?

Plus I should probably know more about Baiken’s Dead Angle-esque techniques performed from a guard positioning; kind of reminds me of Tardy Countering from Rival Schools / Project Justice ( watch didjital insanity’s vid if you haven’t ).

And oh yeah, as of Tekken 5.1, Bryan can no longer succesfully follow up a parry with b+1 into a juggle of his choosing because they changed the bounce launch properties into Counter Hit only.

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What’s a GTFO?

Am I the only one that hates the idea of pGIs? It just sounds redundant, since nobody would want to perform anything less than a pGI. Are there any benefits for doing a late or regular GI?

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I didnt like the idea until I saw more SC3 footage, and pGI is quite rare although in one Setsuka vs Mitsu movie one got pgi-ed and then the other pgi-ed right back.

Supposedly it’s not just going to be fast timing, the imput has to be exact for it to happen. Add that with the SC1 imput and smaller gi window period and I think it all evens out.

I bet you’re thinking “free GI for all”, but if it’s back to the SC1 days like they say then I wouldnt worry. There are 2 people that I know of that have unfinished versions and I havent heard any ranting.