They still comparatively do less damage and cover less space than fireballs in IV.
I’ll admit there are other factors as well (less derpy jump arcs), but even without 'em, Yun would still be running around the cast and Genei-ing them to oblivion and Chun would still sit back and wait for a chance to wreck shop with SA2.
the thing to the left of your posts
Well, they would probably be running shop MORE since most chars don’t have a good answer for Dive Kicks/Genei EXCEPT parry and Chun would miraculously be even more safe.
But the point is that zoning would be overall more effective. There are a couple problems as it stands now. First there’s no way to stop someone from jumping the fireball, they still can beat you out even though you technically got them to commit to what zoning is supposed to DO. This is especially apparent with Urien who can’t oppose air opponents well except with his slow 1 hit fireball. Which is still used since if it DOES hit you die more or less. The other problem is that if your fireball is parried you get no meter. This is why remy spam has to end eventually and actually does you more harm than good depending on their particular skill level since they build meter. Those are the two chars who would benefit the most but also thinks like akumas fireball would see more practical usage and air fireballs would be harder to contest. They’re actually vaguely effective now, imagine if the opponent actually to move backwards slightly against them.
This actually makes me realize that several chars would be incomplete without parry, holy crap makoto would suck. Why did I waste my life on this game! [jkjkjk <3 you 3s]
WTF are you talking about? His 3S posts are STILL true today.
It’s not about “learning a new game” since we all clearly know how 3S plays and what you need to do to win in it, but about CRITICISM of it- How it’s design overall gives you an inferior type of game. (Which of course some people may be fond of but still.)
Seth Killian (in his 2D vs 3D article down below the forum list) was describing 3S as a dumbed down 3D fighting game (take VF at it best if you want a comparison) and he’s also correct when you sit and think about it. 3S takes away from the importance of positioning that exist in 2D games and places instead of it a system of X beats Y period, which is something that is already present in VF only that in VF it’s way more developed and has more variety among characters.
How has parry changed 3S for the better since then? It only got WORSE as years went by and people found powerful option selects.
But the point is that zoning would still not be as effective as it is in IV. Projectiles in general are generally the worse they have been save for A3.
Oh lol. My bad. Thanks. A friend made this pic for me 
Well, fine. If thats the point you wanna make. The original post made it sound like zoning was completely useless even without parries which I think is heavily debatably.
I do wanna hammer one point home tho. 3s obviously took the idea of conventional zoning and scrapped it as it became apparent that it was simply less effective with parries being considered. But try to imagine a necro in a game with no parries. See anything you like?
He made those posts in 2004 and the game and knowledge of it has grown quite a bit to this day. A few of the things he said are true and make sense, like when he said that most of the characters in the game are semi-grapplers. True, but I don’t think that’s because of parry, I think it’s because close-up combat is the focus of the game rather than full screen and zoned combat. The characters are bigger and the stages are smaller, which leads to closer quarters combat, which I think was a reactionary design in light of the complaints about excessive fireballing or runaway tactics. So Capcom designed a game in which those playstyles weren’t as viable.
As for the Killian article, it’s his opinion. He likes games with fireballs. Great. Does he dislike all 2D games that don’t place emphasis on zoning? What’s his opinion on Alpha 3 where fireballs are possibly worse than they are in 3s?
And pretty much ANY fighting game is a system of X beats Y and Option Selects exist in plenty of games. What makes them any different in SF3 than they are in any other game just because the parry mechanic exists?
I don’t want to turn this into another 3s parry thread, so if you want to keep jousting on this, let’s take it to PMs.
This is a good point. Projectiles in 3s are useful, but not in the traditional “Throw 'em till KO” type of way.
Oh geez, the 3S parry bashing. “Parry ruined zoning”, by which they mean fireballs, not zoning. Remy, Akuma and Ryu have useful fireballs, you can move while they parry your fireball if you aren’t in recovery and the parry freeze is longer than blockstun so they have more time to move around and position yourself. In theory, you can parry everything but no one does parry everything.
Parry is just another piece you have to be mindful of. It influences the game and makes it a unique experience.
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Ok, so. Like. Just so we’re using the same definition. “Zoning” defines controlling a space of the screen so as into induce the opponent into another space of the screen wherein you have hopefully insidious plans for them. Parry does a bit of number on this concept since they always have an option that potentially totally negates what I throw at them. Akuma has the 3 hit fireball which acts as a pseudo assist if done far away enough and an air fireball which can be used in the way you described. Which isn’t exactly zoning. Ryu has an EX fireball which can be used as a strong mid range footsie tool due to its fast startup and recovery again letting him use it as a psuedo assist if they react as you described. Remy is the only one who can ‘zone’ with his fireball and as stated above has limited applications overall since if they’re effective at parrying you’re just giving them meter. SOMEWHAT effective yes - but ask any Remy player what hesheit thinks of parry and I think you’ll get an honest answer.
Summery: Despite your attempts to zone them, they can still move forward relatively unmolested. Effective?
The point Viscant was trying to get at all those years ago is that parry is overly powerful technique that reduces certain ‘core’ aspects of a FG significantly. Lemme pull a more recent example. I play Mak in 4. Against Fei he puts me in the corner. He now has a substantial advantage over me since his pokes wildly outrange mine allowing him to strike with relative impunity. I have to guess check him properly [jump a rekka, anti air properly, dash and throw a FA or some such. If I have parry however I should really just do that. Now the guy who supposedly put me in his strongest position is playing a guessing game with me. Huh.
Summery: instead of looking for particular answers to moves, I technically have a one shot for everything. Whether I get it or not is a completely different story, but its there
Side Note: Technically Mak in 3s is MUCH weaker on defense than her 4 iteration. This rarely comes up for various reasons, but parry’s a pretty big one I’d say.
You say influence, I said direct. I’m seriously of the opinion that parry is the STRONGEST SYSTEM that can be in a fighting game [sans ultimate guard gem haha nice one capcom] and that if it is ever implemented again as it was in 3s that game will simply BE 3s. I honestly point to the fact that the top tiers are the ones that evade parry the best as evidence of this. Yun is very risky to parry, Chun is very difficult to usefully parry. [best range, fastest moves] Also best throw game. Ew. Urien has probably the closest to a conventional pressure game due to his ability to actually lock a char. And so on
All I’m saying is change isn’t bad and the results of 3s speak for itself.
Parry should always cost a decent amount of meter.
by this point we should be beyond bringing up Viscant’s parry post
he doesn’t play 3s and doesn’t really understand how the game works (or at least didn’t when he wrote that post)
if 3s actually worked the way he describes no one would still be playing it
If you are in the corner and start guessing parry in 3s you are going to get blown up. This is what I mean by people who don’t really play the game. It sounds true when you talk about it, but then you actually play the game and it doesn’t work out that way. Being in the corner is a disaster in 3s and the only good way to deal with it is to super jump out as soon as you have an opportunity. 3s is a game where offense is really good and if you’re engaging in guessing games as the guy stuck in the corner you’re very likely getting the sense kicked out of you.
Yang is a decent analogue for for Fei I think. If Yang has you in the corner you would be dumb to guess parry in either direction. You just block and hope you don’t get messed up. Then you get out of the corner as soon as you can. If your example was in 3s, Fei would still be in a great position and Mak would still be in a bad one. The circumstances might be different - Fei would probably have more mixup tools and Mak would be worried about that but Fei would still be in a great position and Makoto would still be in a terrible one.
No offense to anyone discussing the topic, everyone here has thought this stuff through I’m sure. But a lot of the anti parry stuff is theory fighter. Blocking is usually the best option when you’re in a bad defensive position, same way it is in most good FGs.
Nah dewd yhu cen pery evrythin tht yur oponeint thros
I did it 1 tim
Sighs… parry is a fun mechanic. 3s isn’t SF2 (obvious) and changed the way the game was played. Like others stated before me, it’s about offensive/defensive momentum that can be gained/lost in the blink of an eye. I for one find the offensive game of 3s to be very fun and deep* if you disagree then explain to me in a post how I’m wrong and how your feelings are hurt because I really care about what you think is fun or deep*. Parry is very powerful and not a huge risk, but the parry haters talk like they would hop on a versus city cab and parry everything that K.O or Kuroda would throw at them. Get a grip, you dopes. Go back to your anime fighters and we’ll go back to threes.
edit: italics for sarcasm
parrying in SCV is brain dead easy
Hooray for single round elimination… Tougeki format is a joke.
I think you just answered your own question. I do find 3S to be fun, but the whole game revolves around avoiding parries. Sorry, but the truth hurts.
I think Viscant’s posts have more to do with the fact that parries put execution above strategy and positioning.
It def makes for more hype matches as every single match counts… there are no redo’s.
If you think it means that a less skilled player wins than you’re wrong seeing as the same 7-12 guys win every tourney.
That’s not the point. It gives the illusion that the game is more balanced than it actually is.
Or deeper.
To be honest, I haven’t been in too many high level mindgames, but when I have, I realized just how much of a fish out of water I was.
On the other hand, when I watched my friend play a set with Gootecks at FR, I saw every situation reset after the parry, which, I just didn’t like.
Not gonna try to say its unbalanced or stupid (I think it is, but believing something is and knowing are a little different to me).
Before I reply to this, let me say that I AM a Remy player. Fireballs aren’t the only way to control space. In fact, if all you’re doing to control space in 3s is throwing fireballs, then you’re not doing a very good job of controlling space. As a Remy player, I WANT them to parry my LoV’s (the sonic booms) because while they’re dealing with that, I’m setting up a Cold Blue Kick, or something else to put them into a worse situation. It’s not about the damage you get from the LoV, it IS about positioning. By parrying my LoV, they’re putting themselves in a worse position because I’m taking advantage of that to put myself in a better position (preferably with them in the corner.) And if Remy were faster, he’d be further up on the tier list I think. And if they can move ahead relatively unmolested despite attempts to zone them, then you’re not effectively zoning them.
Yun and Chun have quick moves and pretty good mixups. Mixups are the name of the game in 3s and any character that has good ones is going to be hard to parry. Parry is not always the best option (in fact as IglooBob said, BLOCKING is always your best defensive option. Always has been, always will be.)
Wrong. If your timing is the least bit off you’re going to eat an attack at best, or a high damage Super Cancel Combo at worst. Parrying when you could block is VERY risky. Like you yourself said, most people who think parry is the most powerful option available at all times are playing theory fighter (much like Viscant was in those infamous posts.)
You could say that about any game with general subsystems. Guilty Gear’s glut of subsystems means that characters who wouldn’t have a chance in hell on their own can be competitive.It means the game becomes a little more homogenous, but I think I’m okay with that in light of having more characters that are considered competitive.