This is the huge problem with threads like this. Parry defenders are basically in this to the death and completely unable to grasp the concepts being discussed. A lot of this has to do with 2-D history. I find that the most fervent parry defenders are the people who either weren’t around during the heyday of 2-D fighting or were never really upper level enough to understand the depth. The reason that 2-D fighting was such a successful genre is because it’s something that seems simple on the surface and everyone can understand and learn the basics in a few minutes, but it takes a long time to truly master the intricacies. How am I supposed to argue this if people not only don’t understand the advanced part of the game…but actually refuse to acknowledge it’s existence! It would be funny if it weren’t tragic.
Anyways, before we go any further, I want people to answer these questions. Agree or disagree.
- Parry reduces the variety of character types available in a game.
- Parry reduces the level of mind games.
- Parry is a good thing for game balance. Use examples from NG, 2i, 3s and CvS2 all P groove.
- Parry is safer than previous ways to break traps (reversals, laying down, rolling)
Answer these honestly. If you come to the correct answers and still think that parry is a good thing then I have no idea what to tell you.
Now to ElCarpeto, the man who cannot read:
“Getting a little personal here, aren’t we? Just because not everyone is subscribing to your own personal description of mind games, which amusingly you refuse to describe beyond generalisiations of “THEY’RE BIGGER! AND… AND… AND… MAGIC THAT ONLY OLD PEOPLE CAN DO! … GET OFF MY LAWN!”, doesn’t mean you can pms and call me stupid. Mind games at all levels are important, high-level mindgames exist in 3s and retard-level mindgames like getting dp-ed while attempting to pressure a waking opponent exist in everything. Live with it.”
Once again you’ve failed at reading. This is becoming a common occurence. I wonder if you just aren’t understanding or are just trying to be stupid. Oh well.
You want an example of different layers of mind games that other games have that 3s can’t because of the parry? All right. Let’s say we’re playing ST. Blanka vs. Vega (ironically, both of these characters couldn’t exist in 3s anyways), both characters have charged meter. Blanka has a small lead, about 10%. There are about 30 seconds left in the match. Let’s say in this situation, Blanka is walking forward and Vega reacts to that with jab roll. Blanka blocks and this pushes him about 3/4 screen from the corner. Vega does low jab xx KKK. If Blanka jumps forward or walks forward I do super and he’s about 80/20 going to eat it and most of the 20 he’s going to eat claw swipe. If he hops back, I do super to the far wall to break his charge and he’s about 85/15 to eat the super and again most of the 15 he’s going to eat claw swipe. If you do ball, I have a charge built up and will flip kick combo you. If he sits still, I can slide and push him back towards the corner in which case I’m going to corner guard him and he really has little shot at the match from this position since all my throw ticks are now in play and his reversal (blanka ball) becomes unsafe.
Now, I wrote this scenario carefully. There is a very critical mistake Blanka made in this scenario. Do you see what it was? What could he have done in this situation to avoid a very very bad position? Failing that and this played out the way it did anyways, what is your move?
This is an example of a multi-layered mind game. I did a move (jab roll) to set up a scenario many moves in advance taking into account all factors including position, time, health, meter to hopefully set up a scenario where I’d have a good chance to win the fight. Now in a situation with parry, none of this is available because Blanka could parry the low jab. If you know Vega’s character design, the only high move that could reach Blanka from that position after a claw roll is a low claw poke or stand fierce. You could “guess” low and react block to high (and even if your reactions are awful and you get hit, you’re still slightly leading). A multi-level game involving position is basically useless due to the parry (and this is presuming you didn’t parry the jab claw roll in the first place).
I like how you consider 3s mindgames “deep” when we’ve already concretely established that they can go no further than “I thought you were gonna do this but you did that and I was surprised”. Green Eggs and Ham for the Nobel Prize in Literature, eh?
“Point taken to an extent, but the pedestal you place parrying on is ill built. The sheer risk of a parry alot of the time makes it smarter to just fucking block, though the number of mid level players who think they have to try and parry everything is alarming. Parry -> damage does not decide entire matches for a start. No 100% damage combos here. And as long as that’s the case and the chance of fucking up is high, fishing for random parries is risky and self defeating.”
Please explain how attempting to parry is riskier than a previous avoidance option. Most of the time trying to parry is actually almost zero risk, especially when you buffer them into fast moves that combo into heavy damage like CvS2 Cammy/Kyo/Yamazaki/Sagat. Interestingly enough, those are 4 of the about 7 characters that would completely dominate a game like that were it all P groove. Imagine that!
"Clearly we don’t disagree on the fact that they’re dying because they don’t sell, which makes me wonder about your passion for argument.
But you’re saying that at the same time that people think that all fighting games are the same, while lambasting people for enjoying something different.
So saying “SF is dead because you like parrying” is an argument on the level of “Daddy drinks because you cry.” "
God no. Please for the love of God, start to read!
This genre is dead because even the fans of the genre have become unable to differentiate the different levels of mindgames and thus have little need for new games since they never actually get to experience them. Or in your case, completely denying that they even exist at all! For example, why buy a Ferrari if you’re only going to drive to the market for milk. In your case, you’re completely denying that a car can go over 15 mph, so your Geo Metro is good enough. You can like your Geo all you want, just don’t claim that it can match the Ferrari in performance, when anyone with a brain can see the inferiorities.
An example of this is CFJ, the last “majro” Capcom 2-D fighting game made. How many people actually explored that game? How many people actually figured out who dominated that game and why? Not very many. People played it for a couple weeks, saw a couple of week 1 videos and instantly claimed that Jedah broke the game and that it was “all the same as we’d seen before”.
Why make any more 2-D fighting games if even the “true fans” aren’t going to take the time to understand it and play it. When even these hardcore fans don’t understand that it’s NOT the same thing they’d seen before. If you aren’t going to take the time to digest the differences (or in your case even acknowledge them) then the genre really is dead because in everyone’s made up minds, there’s nothing new to see.
The fact that you can’t even understand this is depressing. Answer the 4 questions I wrote above anyways just for my amusement, then please try to defend parry in light of your answers.
–Jay Snyder
Viscant@aol.com
I read your posts, I still honestly don’t see how most mind games aren’t some form of “I thought he was going to do this, but he did that, so I did this”