Thats the truth. Just play it regardless of who says what.
Spoken a criticism of parry, heard an insult to 3s.
The variety is not in the way players play the character but how different character X is generally played from character Y. Remove parry and add character-specific special attacks/command normals with different commands that avoid/negate projectiles but in a different way and there you go. In Third St… a fighting game with parry as a universal option, there is no character-specific strategy when it comes to this. You just parry.
3s is a good and unique fighter, I wouldn’t take parry out of that game if I had the power. But really, EVO isn’t gonna drop 3s so lets look forward to a parry-less fighter.
i see distance characters not doing damage from a distance but having better defense then any other characters by the tools they have to win… sure remy and twelve bleed like 11 year old whores but the way they r played they dont have to deal with a half to 2/3 of the crap someone can do to them if they keep there end of there game up.
they do small damage because capcom allowed them means not to be hit most of the time. twelve can avoid being on the ground almost completely and outside of a combo yun still needs to chase twelve down with genie jin. so does chun. heck so does everyone. remy sets up walls infront of him that stops forward movement and jumps towards him but allows him to move in and poke because he has his shields up. parrying his projectile makes the opponent stop and pause but remy is on the move already doing something else. u cant parry EVERYTHING your bound to get thrown out of a parry or cbk or deal with another set of lov’s when u counter after u parry (but thats a mind game given to remy allowing him further damage).
side note
in sf2 u dont have detail (or u do i dont see it) with vitality bars and everyone’s health pretty much was all the same length. everything does monster damage in sf2 (so every tactic is equally rewarding). u bring up taking damage to get into position but taking damage is all u can do in sf2 in ALOT of situations. your options r limited to the fact they gave everyone a special move to do for x situation. u learn the timing for said move and u blow through whatever crap they had u in. wow lots of skill there, sounds like instead of giving everyone parries u gave srk’s, hadokens, and hurricane kicks to everyone to cover there asses with nice strong invincibility(sp) frames. u learn the timing (which requires skill) and u play on with no one mentioning how extra good to grotesque those specials were overpowered.
but 3s has both parries to get past something and individual moves to deal with situations. the special moves dont have gobs of invincibility like sf2 only some do, and some others have different types of invulnerability. some r immune to PARRIES, throws, high moves or low moves.
parrying only becomes effective if your inrange to punish with something damaging or to gain momentum. why risk a parry if u cant do anything damaging or to put u in a better position?
characters like remy and twelve do not use parrying unless they r upclose anyways. both of which can do nice things to ppl if they parry that dont involve straight up damage but leads them to pick at the opponent for the rest of the round much safer. otherwise they r at far range doing things that benefit them winning because they do not need to have that option to parry at that range, they instead give that option to parry to the opponent and they work damage off that.
your point?
Getting a little personal here, aren’t we? Just because not everyone is subscribing to your own personal description of mind games, which amusingly you refuse to describe beyond generalisiations of “THEY’RE BIGGER! AND… AND… AND… MAGIC THAT ONLY OLD PEOPLE CAN DO! … GET OFF MY LAWN!”, doesn’t mean you can pms and call me stupid. Mind games at all levels are important, high-level mindgames exist in 3s and retard-level mindgames like getting dp-ed while attempting to pressure a waking opponent exist in everything. Live with it.
If we take your example of chess below, and chess is a totally fantastic game, in that game people always make decisions. Every step the players are having to read ahead for the entire game, and select the sequence of actions. But lets say Deep Blue makes the move Queen to B5 and Kasparov responds with what he thinks is the best possible defence, Knight’s pawn to F4. But really it wasn’t the best thing, and Deep Blue had a plan from there that meant the game could almost only go in his favour from now on almost no matter what Kasparov did. What was that? Easy. Kasparov just dp-ed while Deep Blue was blocking, it just didn’t LOOK as stupid. Of course the elaborate plans exist as well, but I’m not disputing that, I just want to show that low level mind games are everywhere, and are unavoidable.
Anytime you get an advantage on someone it’s because either they made a mistake, or they accidentally wandered into acting in a fashion that you wanted them to.
Point taken to an extent, but the pedestal you place parrying on is ill built. The sheer risk of a parry alot of the time makes it smarter to just fucking block, though the number of mid level players who think they have to try and parry everything is alarming. Parry -> damage does not decide entire matches for a start. No 100% damage combos here. And as long as that’s the case and the chance of fucking up is high, fishing for random parries is risky and self defeating.
I might as well claim that any invincible move in ST is the best defensive option in any given situation; as I can, in theory, dp everything. I just need to dp when I think you’re going to attack, then I’ll have a knockdown and advantage and all (Though I concede the damage is lower). Course this won’t work, and I’ll frequently fuck up and take mondo damage in the butt. Way to go me.
Clearly we don’t disagree on the fact that they’re dying because they don’t sell, which makes me wonder about your passion for argument.
But you’re saying that at the same time that people think that all fighting games are the same, while lambasting people for enjoying something different.
The real case is that the majority of games buyers aren’t even LOOKING for depth in a game so criticising their lack of ability to understand is moot. And there are those that are looking for depth in a game, but have interests in other genres. 2d fighters therefore only have an appeal for people that ignore flash and want a fighting game.
This means the market is small, demand is small. And anyone who understands supply and demand would not want to overdo the amount of investment they put into a project with limited appeal.
So saying “SF is dead because you like parrying” is an argument on the level of “Daddy drinks because you cry.”
I’m not touching that with a six foot pole.
Actually, yes I am. What the hell? Do you really want a game WITHOUT strategy? We don’t want something mindless.
Go sit in the corner. You fail.
My point is that parry belittles what makes Street Fighter, Street Fighter.
i like it when someone parries a projectile i throw, it gives me something to work with. it makes me throw them with another set of goals in mind.
parrying doesnt belittle or weaken a strategy. if the strategy was all that to begin with a simple parry shouldnt abolish it.
That article is cool, but I suspect to be taken with the slightest pinch of salt.
To note is that parrying is still a forced reaction to fireballs. Just because they don’t take damage and don’t jump doesn’t mean they ignore it. It’s not like an old school KoF dodge, which is still a punishable action if your fast enough.
Not really. Someone could just sit at ~1 character distance away with Ryu and cr.RHxxFBall day against that.
edit: I mean really, do you know how hard it is to DP a shoto cr.RH? Saying you could use DP to beat everything is like me saying it’s possible to win by timeout in MvC2 with infinite Dark Sakura teleports.
And it’s not that “it’s possible to parry everything” that’s the problem. The problem is in ANY defensive situation, no matter what other options you have, parry is always one of them, and along with that it carries the highest reward 99% of the time.
Tj definately NOT using system direction. Parrying Chun’s super isn’t even that big of a deal. Hell Tj can start the red-parry on Chuns super at any point during. But yeah even so the air to ground parry in that vid was pretty sweet. The question is though who the hell throws out Chun’s super as an anti air lol.
Where can I find this video of Dudley vs Ryu with lots of parrying?
If your on msn I can send it to you. It might be on CV but if it’s not, I haven’t got a clue.
I disagree. Parry stops momentum. Remy may have a few situations where he likes people to parry sometimes, but imagine him if there was no parrying in 3S- he’d be a much better character, right?
Projectiles on screen still need to be dealt with, but that would be true if you could jab fireballs away…parrying is much better than block because you take no damage and you’re not pushed backwards, and can do any attack immediately afterwards. As a defensive option, it definitely hurts people who push people around/ in or out of position in ways that don’t involve c.FK, dash, throw.
without parrying remy would be kinda boring… oh and also lame because he wouldnt be able to parry. if i get a down parry thats a cl st mk into lk cbk. that crouch combo does nice damage and lets remy get in someone’s face without being at a frame disadvantage.
if an opponent parries a lov that means he doesnt get pushed back right? this makes them stand right where i know they’ll be as i approach them. in 3s if someone parries a lov this doesnt give them frame advantage… remy has ALREADY recovered and is already on step 2 part A of his plan. i’m counting on your ability to do something after/when u parry. i had the choice to mess with u while u parry and after. what tactical advantages does the person parrying the lov get? none, because the remy player who threw the lov still gets to act first (or wait and watch).
a smart player will try there best to avoid an lov different ways not the same way everytime. u get too comfortable countering one situation its only a matter of time before the person throwing the lov will come up with another division in his plan. only time i see remy die in high level play is if the other player gets his game on and the remy player fails to do what remy does best. they instead try to be hero’s and rush down (good when u got them in a corner, but not all the time)… be the wimpy villian who runs away. =]
getting someone to hit my opponent over the head with a steel chair doesnt belittle or weaken a strategy. if the strategy was all that to begin with, getting someone to hit my opponent over the head with a steel chair shouldnt abolish it.
But that would sound silly wouldn’t it?
The fact is that while people are trying to find the most random examples to create some illusion that parry is worthwhile, the most obvious cons still remain: entire character designs become totally worthless, a reduction in overall strategy, a reduction in overall game balance, none have been refuted in this thread. Id be interested to see how people just missed putting that on thier pros/cons list.
The most common sense way to explain it is to pretend your designing a game, you went through the trouble to create super meters, character designs, projectiles, normals, etc… so you have a novel of how your parts interact and how one thing affects another. Then someone walks in and says “Listen i got this awesome idea, lets create a move that doesn’t take meter, can be used infinite times, only requires one direction press, and can totally negate the opponents move, normal,special,super, whatever”. Then he spends the next week trying to convince you that this concept somehow adds depth and variety to your fighting game engine through a vague bastardization of what a strategy is, and random isolated examples that are only seen as deep if both players are drunk out of their mind. That is this thread in a nutshell.
stop being a wussy and just lock it then, not everyone in the game uses parries the same way so i still dont see how its the same move for the entire cast.
But that just supports the claim that parry doesn’t REALLY balance the game, instead creating NEW imbalances that wouldn’t exist otherwise while attempting to eliminate others. BTW, you suck donkey balls at responding to an argument. I don’t see how FMJ is a wussy when you won’t even take the time to address what he’s actually said.
I wonder why people hack parry to pieces in 3s but never debate the presence of GI in SC2.