Parrying: Good or Bad?

Current Fighting Games Fighting Game Discussion
181

The way I see it, if there were no mindgames (or very poor mindgames) then the top players wouldn’t consistantly place at the top at every tournament. If the game is too simple then tourney results would be random as fuck.

As for arguments about spacing, I just can’t understand what people are arguing about. There are plenty of spacing games in 3S. Maybe they aren’t as important as Super Turbo because you can’t space as well with fireballs, but they’re still there. Watch the top players play Ken or Chun-Li, it’s definitely there.

As is, I think Brian is absolutely right from about 6 pages ago or something. The parry system itself is fine, it’s just that you can get too much damage as a result of the parry. What if parrying gave you something like Rock Howard’s counter, and you get a small amount of damage and a knockdown?

I also don’t see the problem with being different. If 3S had the same mindgames and traps/setups/strategies as Super Turbo or Alpha 3, then it’d be like playing those games all over again. I don’t want a slightly revamped addition of the same thing, I want a new system with new rules. Variety is important so everyone will have something they’ll want to play.

182

Ever seen a whiffed parry? A whiffed parry is not something so easy to see. They pretty much just move one pixel forward. This does happen in high level play. And no matter how rare it is, it is. And in ST this is never the case. If ST Balrog whiffed a headbutt to get past a projectile that doesn’t come out then he’s getting punished. If 3s Ken whiffed a parry for a projectile that doesn’t come then he just moves a pixel forward at the least. The opponent wouldn’t even know they were trying to parry.

RC is more difficult to do. You don’t RC by mistake. If you whiff an RC then the opponent can see that, and there’s a chance that the RC will be punished. If you RC’ed Balrog’s Headbutt then you’d basically have ST Balrog’s headbutt but with more difficulty in execution. IMO RC allows more characters to be used seriously on the tournament level.

183

RC balances CvS2, I dont think there is much question about that. Without RC it turns into CBS and then everyone else.

184

Why dont u guys answer this question?

Which of these following statement have u heard of more often at ur local arcade?
“OMG this guy plays so fucking safe, all he does is runaway/zone/block/turtle/sit there do nothing…”

or
"OMG this guy plays so fucking safe, all he does is parry everything!!"

I thought so.

Parrying works for 3s because its the only game that needs parrying, strategies are based upon countering and counter-countering, that mainly comes from correctly reading ur opponent. In 3s, characters have way too many options. If there isnt parrying in 3s, ppl would just go overhead, low, overhead, throws all day. not to mention the good old fireball/projectile traps.

The only reason I can see why ppl dont like parring is because now all of the sudden your best option could be the most dangerous option, but good players will work around that, whether its using better character movement to mixup and confuse your opponent, offsetting his parry timing, or just simply walk up and throw, most parries are baited anyways, if you feel like your move is always being parried, i suggest you try to get away from ur OG habits.

Parrying also have different risk/reward ratio for different characters, Yun/chun doesnt even need to parry, they have arsenals way more powerful than parrying, 12/remy types doesnt want to parry cuz there isnt much they can do after a parry. The only time u should parry is when u know for certain a move is coming, or when ur near death. All of which is based on your experience, and knowing your opponent’s tendecies. I am finding the better I get, the more I know when to parry. 3s is about situational reactions, the decision u make in those situations will determine the outcome, great players are great players because they tend to make the right decisions, more often than not.

More to come…

185

(Warning: Super Long Probably Very Noobish But Open-Minded Post)

Third Strike and ST push different emphasis to gameplay.

ST is about the timing, position, execution, experience and knowing what to do in certain situations depending on your character. I used to play ST2 when I was younger, but that doesn’t really mean much so I’ll give my opinion from what I read from Viscant and other anti-parry debaters. ST gives you a bunch of different characters with different strengths and weaknesses who do well depending on their position in accordance to their opponent. Each character has different options depending where they are, where their opponents are and WHO their opponents are. Also means it gives greater meaning to knowing the ins and outs of your character since knowing and learning what to do on reaction or by instinct requires a lot of dedication and practise to learn. Also where knowing when to block and when to get hit will result in the best scenario for you.

3S on the other hand removes one of the biggest aspects of what made ST in the first place and that’s position. This being said to a lot of 3S players is found to be untrue, because as with a lot of opinions, there are exceptions. Given, position only matters to a few characters rather then most, it is still in the game. Though it does not retain important aspects of it’s roots, it doesn’t mean that 3S simply removed it without substituting anything in it’s place. It did.

1 honest question that I really don’t know, but maybe someone like Viscant can help answer for me.

In the many years that ST has been around, aside from the competitiveness of it, how much has the strategy and tactics evolved from the day it was released until now. Then replace ST with 3S and compare the results.

To me, I honestly think 3S encourages evolution in tactics and strategies. It makes knowing what to do change from time to time because of the huge presence of parrying. It’s very true that parrying has a higher rewared factor when compared to it’s risk, but gameplay now revolves around defeating parrying situations rather then fighting for position on the stage. Even with parry present though, it doesn’t diminish the fact that pressure also still exists in the game, just as it does in ST, though it’s not as easily applied.

The only thing I can say about parrying is that even though I enjoy playing 3S a lot more then ST2, any 3S player must admit that Parry DOES dumb down CERTAIN aspects of the game. Though, ST players need to also admit that Parry as an option does also create new situations whereas to evolve or adopt new strategies to defeating.

3S also does a good job at doing something an ST2 type game doesn’t do and to be honest, the reason why the 2D Fighting Scene is dead (or is dying anyways) isn’t because of the fact that most people will never understand or enjoy the mid/high level mind game aspects of the game, it’s because most gamers are CASUAL gamers and tailoring businesses to try and make money solely off only pleasing the Hardcore crowd is hard. Given Guilty Gear and KoF are still doing pretty well, maybe it’s just because they come out with new revisions and games almost every year or 2 rather then every 4+ years like Capcom does. Only a handful of players will ever enjoy 2d fighting games at a competitive level anywhere in the world other then Japan. Evolution is said to be a HUGE gaming competition, but compare that to how many people play games and the numbers are tiny. 2D Fighting Games could thrive if there were more endorsements and publicity pushes for it. Give us competitions and media time and the genre will thrive, but will it happen? Censorship says no and most ignorant parents will say fighting games or any games in general are a waste of time and do nothing to help their children. Society is the problem, not whats wrong with the community (even though the dwindling of is an apparent reason as well).

Anyways, back to the topic at hand, Parry. Theres an issue about parrying that I’ve never agreed with and that’s on the case of fireballs. Parry DOES NOT NEGATE FIREBALLS. Though as said before, fireballs also do not function as they used to since parrying has removed the “know when to get hit or when to block” (aka positioning) portion of the game. Non-isolated situations of where fireballs aren’t a negated presence are found in the form of character match ups.

Remy would be the fireball obsessed character of the game and though he would be a lot stronger if parry weren’t present, he’s not entirely useless. He can lockdown big characters pretty well due to the fact that they’re not as mobile and that even after parrying they don’t have a whole lot of options. Those would be Q, Hugo and Urien. Urien is used quite a lot and I’m pretty sure Urien players would hate a really good Remy player. Fast up/down LoVs trap and immobilize these characters and with the added threat of EX LoVs, Remy can successfully trap these characters while utilizing delayed “flash kicks” as an anti-air, though being a screen length away from a Remy that’s constantly throwing LoVs isn’t that great a situation to be in, the Remy player has to push that part of his game if he wants to get into that situation. In that situation, characters are locked down and the parry option has been exhausted. Pretty much what your ST O.Sagat would do to an opponent, right? Though this differs a lot, because Remy’s case is character dependent while O.Sagat I’m pretty sure can just do that to anybody. Guessing because of the minority of the situations where you can utilize a fireball to that extremity makes it hard to see it exists, it’s still there.

At long ranges, it’d be safe to say that Fireballs DO do something else for the attacker. That it can serve as bait to parry happy players and allow the thrower time to get in closer or do other things (in the case of a slower fireball anyways).

I’ll also be honest again and say that it is true that most of the characters in the game can be classified as semi-grapplers because the game revolves a lot around close combat exchanges as well as throws since it was given it’s own universal command and whiff animation (except for Alex which for some reason doesn’t really have one). I guess this is the part where ST players clash against 3S players.

3S diminishes distanced gameplay in order to put more emphasis into close combat, but the addition of parrying being thrown into the fight creates a random factor where the person that’s on the bad side of the pressure game can turn the tides with just 1 tap (which can be a mistake a lot of the times as well).

This in turn make older players feel that this option is too easily executed and offers too much reward as such. Only the scrubs that don’t know how to play either game would say it’s broken WITHOUT reason other then that the general consensus is that of which parry is labeled.

I’ll say it again as I believe I’ve said it before. High Level mind games from ST do not exist in 3S, this is true, but this does not mean 3S does not have it’s own high level mind game. It does a very good job at promoting mind games that take favour of the features in it’s own game. Because ST is ST and 3S is 3S. Whereas high level mind games of ST revolve around fighting for your position, 3S revolves around fighting for pressure dominance and ability to read the opponent.

If this was not all clear I guess I can put it into the simplest form that could possibly be agreed upon by both ST and 3S players (even though I’m not a hardcore ST player myself).

ST features the ability to fight for and put people into winning or losing situations where it’s inherent to see who’s winning or losing in a fight. 3S does not emphasize winning or losing situations very strongly. It’s a game where any characters can come back from any situation and win no matter how horribly behind they are. ST in the end promotes futile fights whilst 3S promotes endless struggles.

New players won’t agree with the “they lost because theres nothing they could have done” feature of ST. It’s sad, but that’s why they love 3S. 3S allows you to keep on fighting no matter how bad the matchup is or what situation you’re in.

186

This sounds like something a scrub would complain about. Why is this relevant?

Yes it’s OK in 3s. I just don’t want to see any other SF played like that. You know EVO isn’t gonna drop 3s so why want another 2D fighter to come down to mainly footsies and grappling? The topic is 3s parry not 3s. Parry works for 3s because that’s the focus of the game.

187

post rush kekeke

Parrying on reaction is still the best option when used in moderation. Taking the scenario of a simple card game, where three cards are shuffled face down, and you are to guess which card is the correct card and have the options of:
A) Random blind pick
B) A fraction of a second time to decide which card after the three cards are turned face up

Obviously, with a random blind pick, the odds are not in your favor as it’s a 1/3 chance. With a fraction of a second to look at the cards before making your pick, you at least have slightly better odds of picking the correct card. Though it is a small increase, it’s an increase that exists.

However, it is still a small increase. If you watch some high-level Dudley players, you may notice how often the Dudley players land throws, or c.LK->c.LK->Super, or toward+HK->Super on wake-up.

Reacting to Dudley’s toward+HK isn’t impossible, no. But being able to correctly time either a high or low parry on reaction to either the c.LK->c.LK (low parry), or toward+HK (high parry), or react fast enough to tech his throw (lp+lk for throw guard), is not something that you can do 100% of the time. If you could, those players would be doing it.

On the other hand, in this situation, you might as well go for the parry since you take damage either way for guessing wrong.

  • Parry: Avoid damage, counter with varying degrees of damage and gain momentum (knock opponent down)
  • Block: Avoid damage, get nothing in return
  • Failed parry: Take damage
  • Failed block: Take damage

Option selects fall apart because you can’t parry both ways and block at the same time. You must choose the correct direction on wake-up or you eat a meaty attack and eat damage. Throw option selects fall apart because they are baitable and punishable.

However, I think if you really wanted to “nerf” parries, the easiest solution would be to apply some sort of damage scaling/proration to the player who parries. It could be timer based, rather than combo-based. This mechanic is used for shielding in Melty Blood FT and AC, and it seems rather logical.

Personally, I like 3S the way it is. My only real complaint is with Sean. Of course, there are games with no parries in it, so I don’t see what’s stopping people from playing those games.

FYI.

When a normal attack is parried, both players are put in a parry-freeze state. The person who parried will always be able to cancel this state with another parry or block, or be able to tech normal throws. The person who parries will also recover 2 frames before the opponent. Thus, any attack that is 2 frames or faster (like normal throws or DP’s or Chun’s LP’s) will always be able to hit the opponent before they un-freeze. The person who attacked is able to cancel their attack into a special or super after the parry freeze, if the attack used is cancelable, but obviously the attack won’t work if they are knocked out of it before they even unfreeze.

In the situation of 1 frame throw supers (Hugo’s SA.1 and Ibuki’s SA.2), they can be canceled into from a cancelable attack on reaction to a parry. But the opponent can still knock them out before the super flash with a 1 or 2 frame move (because they recover 2 frames before the other player). Thus, parry baits (or parry reaction buffers) fail if the player appropriately counters (with something like a DP, throw, or Chun’s LP).

That said, all characters with projectiles can set up a situation where they can attack an opponent during parry-freeze by using their projectile. Though obviously some are more practical than others. But even so, the person who is stuck in parry-freeze is still always able to cancel the parry-freeze into a block or another parry, or tech normal throws.

So, the only true (technical) counter to a parry is to set up a situation where you land an unblockable, unparryable, untechable command throw while the opponent is in parry freeze from a projectile attack, because then it is technically inescapable and uncounterable. And the only character that can do that is… Ibuki.

But then, the set-up completely fails if the opponent simply blocks the projectile. Ooootz.

188

WTF where the hell is your spazzy mcFreakus bull av.

189

But Remy WOULD be a lot stronger if parry were absent. So, parry restricts.

In ST, Balrog’s Headbutt allows him to compete with fireball heavy characters and because of that Balrog can convincingly beat O.Sagat. But parry doesn’t help Yang compete with Chun in 3s.

IMO parry is just Capcom’s answer to SF2 complaints from scrubs.

I may be missing something but what’s wrong with wanting a SF where using dp as an anti-air is a good idea?

3s already exists, we can’t change that. But we can make sure that no other fighter is like that.

190

This thread is proof that democracy doesn’t work.

191

Its relevant because how can both statement be a complaint if they are at the opposite end of the spectrum, the ladder one almost never exist. Answer the freaking question and you’ll find that stating parrying is safe and no risk is pretty retarded.

Ok then, so its not everyone’s cup of tea, whats wrong with that? and the large 3s turn out at Evo would suggest you’re in the minority. And if thats irrelavant to you then so be it. I dont wanna see another game where its just fireballfireball, uppercut, or when u have no energy, ur pretty much dead. Capcom needs to make games evolve, and to do that they made 3s and 3s parrying since it adds another element to the game.

192

  1. It doesn’t reduce the number of character types available…it just keeps many of them from excelling. Yeah, shitty answer, but I’m trying to play Devil’s Advocate.

  2. Reduces the level of them, maybe, but because of how the game plays (ie. because of parry and movement options), they are constant. If the game tends to force people into sweep distance (where they may or may not be able to do dick), an area where parry is less-retarded, and where high/low/throw stuff is most powerful, there is very frequently friction going on, even if you’d call it a guessing game…though it’s not REALLY random.

  3. Well, it may or may not be good for balance overall, but it certainly helps some characters, where is where I think some people get confused. Yes, there will be characters who can use it better than others, like jumping or anything else, and those characters will be good because of that fact. Some of these characters would otherwise be medicore and in need of a boost, or parry will accentuate the few good aspects of weaker characters, in some cases. And, the better characters, even if a lot of them will be safe by nature, can still lose to parry->super or whatever.

  4. Well, it’s infinitely unsafe- it’s as dangerous as some of the highest-damage combo the game, because mistimed, moreso than blocking. Fishing for parries, if moderately safe from a distance, CAN still get you killed…that doesn’t even work vs the CPU a lot of times. And even if it was good because of a guess, so are things in other games…are crossups broken? It, of course, does not have discernable recovery time, but you can throw off people’s timing.

This is actually why I responded to the thread, I was curious about this…

Would the mistake be blocking? Specifically the low Jab, but maybe the roll beforehand?

I thought you might be speaking more broadly, about how the solution was Blanka getting into the position in the first place, and about how the match should be played forposition, in a way that would be invisible to many of the people watching it. Like, how you called somebody a scrub for writing off some situation as being broken and impossible to get out of…the match being about not getting into that position, and the strategy thereof.

But, I’ll go with “shouldn’t have blocked something,” considering how the situation was phrased. I guess the other part is what you were getting at by him doing whatever he did wrong.

And, if I would continue to play devil’s advocate; you’re still sort of in a guessing situation. If you try to sweep, Blanka could guess a super (you said both characters were loaded), even if it would put him in the corner if he were wrong (or maybe if right; I don’t know that much about ST or Blanka, let’ alone the properties of ST Blanka’s super). And, given that you said Blanka had an 80-85% chance of getting hit by the super, he could always guess right. You yourself are using a plan, but are doing so to set up a guessing situation, which could backfire on you. How is this different from Aegis Reflector stuff in 3S? And you said that if Blanka did nothing he gets dived on…parry keeps him in the same position, so how would that change? Though, Blanka vs Vega with parries would be queer as hell, especially considering they’re both charge characters in the first place.

Maybe his mistake was getting in c.JP range?

And why would Kyo be so good if CvS2 was all P-Groove?

In regards to the actual thread, parry is good because itstops stupid stuff you see coming a mile away…sometimes. Anyone who’s played SFA3 for more than a week is probably familiar with Zangief’s body splash (down+Fierce while jumping). There are a lot of characters who have issues with this one move, sort of like Sagat c.FP in CvS2. It would be great for a lot of people if they could just tap forward and be rid of it (and retaliate).

However, Zangief hitting you with the splash and forcing you to block means he’s already closer than you may want him, so you’ve already done something wrong. A parry would cover this fact up, because it allows you to correct a mistake without even knowing you’ve made it, like I mentioned earlier with block damage KOs.

Instead of finding out what moves of yours beat the splash, and what his retaliation would be, or examining the nature of the situation, you’ve tapped forward, and now you don’t have to worry about it. His momentum is mostly gone, too. It just sounds like a better game if you can’t do that, you know? You can probably work around the splash and other options Zangief has…maybe your charcter can’t, or has to gamble. But…still.

And anyone who’s played A3 for more than a week, knows that Zangief’s options extend further than d+FP…there are situations where you’re lucky if he just splashes you if he has the chance. But that’s not really the point here.

Edit: Scamp makes an interesting point: if 3S is so shallow, why are results so consistent? Not counting Japan, because they do single-elim.

Regarding people saying how 3S gives you a chance to mount a comeback…that is true, because of parry. However, it gives the other guy a chance to snuff your comeback, maybe off of a guess. And, I don’t know if any of you guys have been to ST tourneys or have seen a bunch of footage, but you see comebacks in ST all the fucking time. Moreso than 3S by far, from what I’ve seen, at least.

About Roll canceling: RC is gay and glitchy. Just is. Can’t be debated. However, it does seem to help CvS2 balance, from what I understand. It’s dependant on the moves of the various characters, will help average/good characters with the right special movs at a better clip than parry.

193

Okay, seriously, so many words wasted on something patently obvious.

PARRIES ENCOURAGE TURTLING. I don’t know how this can be debated, but then again, the current landscape of 2D fighting games is “OMG bagnus RTSD lol” and “I only knew you knew I knew”. (In other words, retarded.)

Parries make ALL attacks potentially unsafe. Even if they’re too far to punish, the opponent still has a huge frame advantage over you (unless you’re Chunli, but that’s another bag of worms). In 3s the smartest thing to do in any given situation is to block. Throws are a patent non-threat given the amount of time the game gives you to break a hold.

Parries reward laziness. It’s easy to sit back and wait for an attack you know is coming. How you are 100% positive that the attack will come is irrelevant because if it doesn’t come, you’re still good to go. The opponent isn’t being aggressive and you can take initiative. Without parries, you’re forced to DO SOMETHING in order to bring the match around to your favor.

The SF3 games are the ONLY games in which not losing is the same thing as winning. 2D games without parrying force you to deal with the idea of constant threat unless you put the game on infinite time which, of course, makes the game suck because it becomes a game of who blinks first, much like SF3 already is.

And if you’re going to counter this argument, don’t you even dare to bring up any big names, much less the Wong vs. Daigo shit. In the end, this is all I really have to say about parrying. If you like games of chicken, then play 3s all you want. But don’t act like it’s a game that demands skill. 3s is nothing more than Rock-Paper-Scissors, the Fighting Game, except there’s no Scissors. Have fun.

194

The mistake was walking forward. In that situation you need to sit on your charge. Vega vs. Blanka is unique in that when Blanka has a charge he can’t get hit by my super because as he sees me going to the wall, he can just ball to freedom. (Occasionally this is a red herring because I can make him ball into the corner and ruin his life, but in this situation, he’s OK) Without a back charge, your chances of eating the super are very high however.
The KKK flip is designed to get out of poking range meaning that if he wants to hit me he has to somehow move forward.

Also if you happen to have gotten in that situation anyways, the (most) correct answer was jump straight up. If I went for a far wall super, I’d run into you. If I went for a near wall super, I can’t go for it right away meaning you can use KKK dash either way to get away, or go for jab elec and hope I anticipated a KKK. None of these are good options and you’re still a favorite to eat the super but it gives you the most options.
This is another level of mind games that is completely eliminated from a game that involves parrying. The art of damage control and crisis reduction. In 3s your best available defensive option is always available so this type of situation just isn’t there. You don’t have to choose options from a tree of all failure since there’s always an option that will bring you success. Parry defenders are going to pooh pooh this situation but anyone who played a lot of Zangief/Blanka/Honda (mostly bad characters in older games) knows that this was a very important part of the game. This is completely eliminated from SF3. Most people don’t even know it existed in the first place.

But like I said, the mistake was walking forwards. In that situation you have to be cognizant of everything going around and walking forward is -EV.

The only thing I want to say about your answer to the questions is that for #3, games with parry balance out in one way. All games that have have balanced out the same and it’s not really a coincidence. There is a small top tier because they somehow take the game and do it better. For example in 2i, Ibuki and Akuma could use parries to their advantage and basically ignore parries against them. There’s usually 2 or 3 characters who obviously suck rocks. Again sticking with 2i, that was Alex and Hugo, by far the worst, even though Hugo had an infinite. And a huge middle tier. The reason for this is because the system engine makes a lot of characters play very similarly to each other. 3s has this problem by making a lot of characters play like a semi-grappler. 2i’s problem wasn’t so much semi-grappler, it just broke down like an old Marvel game in that all the mid-tier characters played like heavier less mobile pixies.
But that’s really what parry does in regards to balance. After 3 (4 if you count an all P CvS2) games, they’ve all broken down exactly the same. This is not a coincidence, that’s just how parry infects a game.

P-Kyo is good because he uses option select parries really well. See, what people don’t realize in CvS2 is that there are a lot of situations where you “use parry” but no parry ever happens. The most obvious of these is off a tech throw. CvS2 is a strange game in that the vast majority of characters can’t really do too much to you high but almost all can get to big damage from a low hit. Off a tech throw, guess low and buffer in low forward/low strong is the winning move. Like for example against Vega, even if he knows what you’re going to do with 100% clarity, what does he do? S.fwd? S.fierce? Everything else he has that can hit you is low parryable or you duck it if he throws it out (super). Even a character like Sagat is going to have a really hard time with that even if he knows with crystal clarity what you’re planning. Eventually he’s gonna have to do something because of the guard bar situation and it could get ugly from there.
But a character like P-Kyo can use the d/f rh kicks to set up a similar situation. Also off a blocked R.E.D. kick he can set up another parry buffer situation. Since guard bars are short you’re going to have to start hitting buttons eventually. Also he has easy combos into big damage from low short, which is important for P groove.
Other non parry related reasons why he’s good are a good hop move (hopping d+fierce) that causes knockdown so you can do it really early if you think you’re going to make contact and you don’t have to guess on their retaliation. P-Kyo is an interesting character who I would play if I a) cared b) played P groove on more than an elementary level c) liked Kyo d) cared.

And Aneurysm:
People don’t really say either. Once again though, you never answered what I said. These “mind games” are nothing more than “I thought you would do this, but you did that”. That’s the biggest problem I have with this argument. There really is no way to get around this and it’s the main crux of this argument. If you aren’t going to get by this, then why even respond to this thread anymore?
I’ll repeat it again. The reason people don’t like parrying is because the multi levelled mind games that are in all other good 2-D games simply aren’t applicable. In their place are more dumbed down “I thought you would but you didn’t” mind games. To people who’ve played all the older games it’s like going from college math to 4th grade arithmetic. It’s such an obvious quantum stumble backwards so as to make it silly. Someone else said it in the thread but it makes a lot of sense. Do you ever wonder why people who were good at older SF games or were at least around during the period where high level play at them was more common…do you ever wonder why out of this group almost NOBODY likes parrying and the SF3 games? It’s not a coincidence. 3s players are almost all new school. It’s not their fault, they just don’t know any better.

Xiii:
ST balance hasn’t really been relevant over the past 3-4 years in America. The game is strange in that older tournaments were actually played on a higher level than more modern tournaments. Moving to console also didn’t help as there’s no true perfect version (see also the Evo forum for an entertaining discussion on this). But ever since I’ve paid attention to ST the main characters have been bosses, Dhalsim and Ryu (not in order).

Also as an aside to everyone.
Since people like to reference Daigo a lot, I will also. Daigo’s video is a perfect example of missed parries. In the Justin video, count how many times he missed a parry when he was waiting for the (inevitable) super. THAT’S what a missed parry looks like. Compare that to rolling, dps, laying down, dodging, etc etc. He could continually fish for the parry and he caught it. Not that Daigo CAN’T DP it on reaction but with parry, why would you bother?

–Jay Snyder
Viscant@aol.com

195

In my opinion:

Q) If you analyze high level GGXX#R play, what do you see?
A) The exact same thing over and over.

I don’t mean to offend the #R players out there, but this is how I feel about #R lately.

Players will turtle (gasp) and spazz on random high priority attacks untill they land something (hit or block), then they will go through the same exact rushdown and mix-up strings over and over, forcing damage, untill the opponent is dead.

I got so sick of that game when I realized you could pretty much press the same sequence of buttons, only varying between high and low after a perfectly safe okizeme, in every match and expect the same results from the same characters almost every time.

What does that have to do with parries? Parries add a random/unexpected element to the game. It adds a bit of excitement and intensity.

Parries give options to low tier characters to punish and/or get-in on very abusible high-priority attacks. Don’t forget that in high level play the mid and low tier get wins against the top tier. Without parries, do you really think that any of the low tier characters would stand a chance in hell against the top tier?

You can sit there and claim parrying is skill-less. But if it were truely skill-less then people would NEVER miss a parry. And you know, even top players who are parry-whores are capable of missing parries quite often.

“DannyLilithborn” mentions that 3S is Rock-Paper-Scissors: The Fighter. But I’d gladly take that over just plain Rock any day. Because I can only take the same old crap over and over for so long before getting bored.

Currently on hiatus, lol. You know I used that shit for over a year, it was time to give it a little break.

Take steps to prevent it?

You know, I don’t really like MvC2 or CFJ. And I’m also pretty bored with GGXX#R.

Those are games that came out after 3S that didn’t have parries. Although the 3S cast in CFJ had parries, the 3S cast isn’t what ruined that game. But correct me if I’m wrong, I don’t play that game.

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This is a matter of preference. Some people like things to be random. I’m not saying that all games should be decided at the select screen. But parries are not the cause of excitement and intensity. It is just a shortcut defensive option that defuses threats.

And yet, Ken, Yun and Chun-Li keep winning in tournaments that matter. Hmm. God forbid people have to actually use their minds to improve a “low tier” character.

Skill is not the same thing as execution. Even the best player screws up sometimes. And you’re missing the overall point here. Parries in and of themselves do not make the game suck, but the consequences of the possibility of parries in high level play make it ingratiating to play at high levels. Tensions are pretty much always high.

High level 3s is more visually impressive to someone with intermediate knowledge of the game. But I guarantee you that no fun is being had by the players. On the other hand, some people like every match to be a headache. Whatever.

By the way, GGXX#R has a parry-esque option - the instant block, which is what a parry SHOULD be.

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Ya ok people dont really say either, ok dodging it there, but anyways, your 3s mind games are way too simplified. 3s is also about “I am making you think I am going to do this, therefore u will counter with this, therefore I can counter with that.” or “I am making it look like I am doin this, but its so obvious to a point where u might think : damn this is too obvious!! he must be tryin to fake this! then I go ahead and do the obvious move” just something as simple as doing certain things to inprint in ur opponents mind, then confuse them accordingly, the only thing is that every player reacts to situations differently, it depends on their skill level, or their personalities even. 3s is as much as playing with the individual’s minds as well as the chracters on the screen. Thus the name “mind games”. Your ST example is interesting, but its just a situational tactic.
But Xiii is right, its just different games and different engines, ST is pretty much all distance, since projectile and DPs play a big role, and if u let a guy up close it could be the end of u, 3s is more versitile, there is keep away, and there is close combat. But if u put any ST characters in 3s, 3s character will slaughter them, cuz they are way more powerful overall, not only because of parrying. You think its dumbing down the game, thats why most old school dont like 3s. Its kinda funny cuz I am 26 and played SF2:WW all the way to 3s, I never had difficulties grasping its concept. Its just not for everyone. I’d like to think of it as a Dad hates his son for getting his ears pierced, narrow minded, but its not the Dad’s fault, he just isnt brought up that way.

P.S Watts seems to have no problem with 3s… hmm…

Edit :

Hahah this guy obviously knows too much about 3s for him to be guaranteeing such a stupid remark, whatever troll of the month.

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parrying makes u use every normal the character has. if parrying wasnt in 3s all u would see is a whole bunch of cr move spamming that has nice animation.

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Right, I agree. I’m not saying every game should be like 3S.

In fact, I agree that 3S took a step in the wrong direction.

However, nothing new has come out since it’s release that is really very entertaining or exciting to me. Of course, this is again just preference. 3S is already an old game as it is, yet nothing newer than it really sparks my interest.

I hope something new will be released that takes giant leaps toward the right direction. Though meanwhile, I can accept 3S for what it is and enjoy it.

It’s true and was my point. Ken, Chun, and Yun get wins because they are Ken, Chun, and Yun. But at least with parries, the lower tier have better odds of getting wins than without.

Now, You’re suggesting it’s the players fault for not using their minds in order to improve their character. So, when in a mirror match without parries, the winner is determined by their mental capacity and random occurance. Let’s assume for a moment that both players are at approximately the same level and putting forth equal levels of effort into out-thinking the opponent. It should be a close and very even match. Now if one of those same players were to switch to a low tier character, the odds of winning are drastically reduced. The “low tier” catch-phrase is just used to recognize the fact that the character has a lot of bad match-ups and/or the character’s offensive and defensive game are extremely limited in comparison to the top tier.

You said yourself that not all games should be decided by the character select screen. And while parries in 3S may not be the best solution for game balance, it certianly does help to add a bit of variety in the outcome between certain matches.

To sum up what I mean: Again, it may be a “poor” mechanic, but it does add a bit of random, which is a preferential thing.

What’s wrong with that?

I believe that’s another preferential thing. The difference between “fun” and “intense”.

I’ve had plenty of experiences with the two. Easily the most “intense” gaming experience I’ve had to date is high level Quake 1 competition. While the game was enjoyable to relax, have fun, and play around in casuals or team battles, I had a completely different experience with 1on1 competetive matches. They weren’t “fun” in the sense that it was fun just to be playing. But, it was certainly “intense” in the sense that the outcome of the match, and every little thing you did during the match, was important and exciting.

Now, I’ve experienced similar things with 2D fighters as well. Perhaps that’s why I fancy 3S.

I’m glad you brought that up, because it’s something I wanted to ask about in this thread (in particular, I wanted Viscant’s opinion on this as well).

What is the general thoughts on parry-like game mechanics?

Garou:MotW was actually released before 3S and featured the Just Defend system, which was similar to a parry, except that it bounced airborn players higher in to the air, added a very small ammount of life, and was only cancelable by just-frame canceling into a special move.

The Just Defend system in CvS2 was similar, but did not allow you to cancel into a special.

And in the Guilty Gear series (I believe X, XX, and #R had instant blocks), had the feature of instant blocking, which reduced block stun, pushed the character back less, reduced guard bar penalties, and increased super meter gains.

Are these mechanics going in the wrong direction or right direction, in relation to 3S parries?

PS. My mouse finally broke. :frowning:
Probably won’t be online again untill I replace it. I hate navigating windows without a mouse.

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The concept of having to use a shitty move just because it beats parry disgusts me, and sounds completely unfun.