OW MY BALLS! Everything Blanka ball related

You’re lying if you say you wouldn’t watch that show. Or at least more mature than I am, I’d hella watch that. Anyways, making this thread to clear up some issues regarding the ball. In this 1st post, all times I use “blanka ball” or “the ball”, I’m referring to the horizontal ball. The 2nd post will detail EX up ball and EX rainbow roll.

Flight path of the blanka ball.

The ball starts as a ground move with all the properties of a ground move. It can be thrown during startup and roughly during the first rotation or so even though the animation may have him fully off the ground at this point. Even though this is true, he is not immune to air-only attacks during immediate ball startup such as Hakan?s Ultra #2. Yes, you get the worst of both worlds. On the plus side, being considered a ground move at first allows you to FADC the ball during early rotations and to super cancel the ball.

Once past this stage, the ball is an air move that flies very low to the ground. It can be stopped reliably by moves without much air contact such as a shoto low forward for example. Low forward is probably Ken?s anti-ball poke of choice in all honesty, which just feels wrong. Contrary to early test reports, the in-flight height of the blanka ball is essentially unchanged in Super SF4.

Blanka ball pushback.
What irritates me the most about ball threads is that they inevitably turn to ?what punishes the blanka ball? discussion. And of course we?re going to do that in the course of this thread. I guess this means I hate myself, but you already knew that?I play Blanka. The problem with this is that people assume that the ball has a consistent pushback. It does not. Pushback on the blanka ball depends on proximity, stage placement, whether your character is standing or crouching, and a ?random? factor.

Some quick examples on the different properties of pushback. In this example we?re going to use Sagat because Lord knows we all didn?t see enough of him in vanilla. His primary blanka ball punisher is reversal EX low tiger (reversal is important). We?ll use Blanka for the training dummy with Blanka set to do fierce balls and blocking afterwards for a period of 2-3 seconds (just to be safe so there?s no period of accidentally not blocking).

Stand vs. crouch. Stand about half screen away and block low. Try to reversal EX low tiger. You will notice that it doesn?t work. Now try stand blocking the ball (try and stay about half screen away, this will become important) and doing an EX low tiger. You?ll find that this works about 95% of the time. Why does this happen? Character widths (and thus how Blanka interacts with the opposing character) are different depending on stand or crouch. Specifically crouching characters are slightly wider than standing characters. This is probably the most easily controllable punishment variable and is fairly well known.

Stage placement. This doesn’t need much explanation. Since part of the recovery of this move is a retraction, if either you or your opponent are in the corner it will affect whether or not you can punish the ball. Obviously if Blanka is the one with his back to the corner it will be significantly easier to punish. Again, fairly well known. Does not play nearly as much of a factor in Super as it did in vanilla.

Proximity. Now we get to a situation that ISN?T so well known. Your proximity to Blanka will affect your pushback. As we learned in the first example, reversal EX low tiger from Sagat on crouch does not punish the ball. Now, position yourself right next to the Blanka training dummy and block low, then try to punish with EX low tiger. This time, it works! Why does this work? Your guess is as good as mine. If you put a gun to my head and made me give you an explanation, I?d probably crap myself then tell you that the ball interacts differently with the opposing character when the game considers it a ground move as opposed to an air move. Is that the exact answer? No idea. I don?t know why it works, I just know that it does. A ball in close proximity to the opponent is considerably less safe than a mid-flight ball.

Randomness! Alright, for this example, we?re going to use Guile. Guile?s blanka ball punish is reversal EX sonic boom from standing. Test out from mid-screen a few times. Take a couple steps forward then try it. Then take a couple steps back from that spot and try it. You?ll find that occasionally Blanka will block it?but sometimes he?ll eat it. It isn?t directly related to proximity since it?s not a case of ?at X distance, Blanka gets hit every time, but at X+Y, he blocks?. At X+1 he may block, but at X+4 he gets hit! This is frustrating for practical gameplay because you don?t want to go for a ball punish but find out that this time the game decided you?re going to whiff. It?s one thing for a character like Guile to miss because the game ?randomly? decided you?re going to come up short. It?s entirely another thing for a character like Rufus who may decide to punish you with low fierce or for Gouken who punishes with jab palm. If that thing hits, fine. If it misses, you stuck your hand out directly in front of me. I can slide?or I can ultra that.

Now, nothing is truly ?random? when it comes to a video game. That?s just not how it works. What likely causes the random element is that as a different part of Blanka?s animation comes into contact with the opponent, his bounce will be ever so slightly different. For reference, this video. [media=youtube]jriRcv7Luhg[/media] . As you can see, Blanka isn’t “round”, he’s a rotating square as he’s rolling. It obviously makes sense that if you hit with a corner, the impact is slightly different (including animations) than when you hit with a flat edge. The problem is that Blanka is rotating quickly. Unless your vision and your reactions are far, far superior to mine, there?s just no way you can eyeball that every time. It sure would be useful though if there were pre-canned situations where you could know you?re going to get a safe ball, wouldn?t it. That leads us to?

The concept of the ?safe ball?.
This is in quotation marks because I ?like? quotation marks, but also because the safe ball is not really safe. It?s just as good a name as any for this. Anyways, as theorized above there are some points on the ball that seem to create a different and slightly safer pushback. We can be sure of one particular spot on the ball that creates as safe a pushback as you?re going to get. That spot is at the very tip of the jab ball, just as Blanka is about to touch down on the ground.

For the example we?ll use 2 Blankas. First, set the training dummy to do a fierce ball. You crouch block it and punish with slide. This is a pretty easy punish, you?ll trip him as he lands. Do it a few times from different ranges to convince yourself that even with the above randomness factor, a blanka ball in mid-flight can be reliably punished with a slide from crouch. After you?ve proven this to yourself to your own satisfaction, now set the training dummy to do a jab ball instead and position yourself just at the tail end of the jab ball?s range (it is about 1 of the large training mode squares). Now try to slide and punish it. This time, you don?t trip the slide as it?s about to land?this time you come up short! And while I can?t confirm that the timing is different, it sure feels like the timing on when you get to hit the button is somewhat different.

This is the concept of the safe ball. One of the exciting developments in Super is that Blanka?s jab ball actually was reduced in range. While on the surface this seemed to be a somewhat non-sensical change, when you consider the properties of the safe ball, it opens up a set of possibilities. One of the most frustrating things about playing Blanka is getting hit back after landing a ball combo. Maybe you can now combo into the safe ball and it would make some things that were previously unsafe on hit now safe? Suggested combos such as low forward, s.jab xx jab ball or low short x3, s.jab xx jab ball might put you in the right range.

At the time of writing this I have not been able to find any concrete examples where a combo into safe ball is any safer. Previously it was thought that the safe ball protects you from Balrog jab dash punch, but after further testing it just appears that any ball on hit not directly next to Balrog is now safe from dash punch (I used low forward xx fierce ball and short, short, jab xx jab ball and Blanka could block on both). This possibility is still open for the future but as of now I have no concrete examples yet. If anyone finds something, it will be added post haste, that would be pretty interesting stuff.

Punishing the ball.
This is the reason that the majority of people click on a blanka ball thread to begin with. After laying out all the different variables involved in the ball and adding in a random factor, we?re going to attempt this anyways including any necessary conditions.

Abel: Soulless. Works under any condition on hit or block.
Breathless. Works under any condition on hit or block, some situations you have to actually hold it for a beat though.
Fierce COD, 1 hit only. Must be blocked standing. May have randomness issues.
Dash in towards + fwd. Must be blocked standing. Definitely has randomness issues.

*Adon: * Short jaguar kick on block, all scenarios.
Jaguar revolver on block, all scenarios. Timing get all hits is difficult, safe ball changes timing.

*Akuma: * Ultra demon on block, all scenarios.

Balrog: Jab dash punch on block, all scenarios.
Super on hit or block, all scenarios.
Ultra #1 on block, all scenarios.
Jab dash punch on hit, extreme proximity (non counter hit).

Blanka: Slide on block, immune to safe ball while crouching.
EX horizontal ball on block, all scenarios
Shout of Earth ground version on block, all scenarios.

C.Viper: Fierce or EX seismo on block, all scenarios.

Cammy: Gyro drive smasher on hit or block, all scenarios.
RH or EX spiral arrow on block, all scenarios.
RH spin drive smasher on hit or block, all scenarios.
*
Chun-Li:* Hosenka on hit or block, all scenarios.
Super on hit or block, all scenarios

Cody: Short ruffian kick on stand block, can be safe balled, may have slight randomness issues?
EX ruffian kick on block, all scenarios.
Ultra 2 on hit or block all scenarios. Getting all hits is quite a trick. You need to be standing on hit to get all hits consistently. On block you need to take 1 step forward first or the followup to the dust will miss.

Dan: No punish outside of corners.

Dee Jay: EX sobat, all situations on block. Interestingly enough due to the path of the safe ball, the safe ball is actually LESS safe and much easier to get 2 hits against.
Walk forward, RH Sobat Carnival hit or block all sitautions. Last hit may whiff vs. safeball.
Walk forward, forward Sobat Carnival on stand or crouch block. Can be safeballed.
Walk forward, Sobat Festival, on block, standing or crouching. Can be safeballed, seems to come up short vs. safeball.

Dhalsim: s.fierce (among multiple other normals) on block or hit. RH slide on block, can be safe balled. Yoga Shangri-la on block, all situations.

Dudley: Fierce or EX MGB on block all scenarios.
Rolling Thunder on stand block, has randomness issues.

E.Honda: EX or fierce headbutt on block, all scenarios.
Super on block, all scenarios.
Ultimate Killer Head Ram on block, all scenarios.
*
El Fuerte:* Habanero dash + RH slide on block, all scenarios. Punishing safe ball is possible, timing is slightly different.
Flying gigabuster on block, all scenarios.
Habanero dash, stop, ultra spark on block, all scenarios. As with the slide, safe ball changes timing but is not a guarantee of safety.
*
Fei Long: * Second hit of strong rekka series on block, all scenarios. Safe ball is not immune to this, but timing is changed.

Gen: Mantis super on hit or block, all scenarios.
Mantis ultra on block, all scenarios.
Dash forward, s.fwd in mantis stance on stand block, has randomness issues.

Gouken: Jab palm strike on block, must be standing. Can be safe balled. Random factor applies also.

Guile: EX sonic boom on block, must be standing. Can be safe balled. Random factor applies also.

Guy: Run into slide on block, all scenarios.

Hakan: Fierce slide on block, all scenarios.
*
Ibuki:* Fierce neckbreaker on block, all scenarios.

Juri: Dash into EX pinwheel on block. Safe ball on crouch is slightly more safe. After many trials, I could not get her to land more than 1 hit of EX pinwheel (which does 30 damage and leaves her unsafe). More testing is required to see if she can effectively punish safe ball while crouching. Also proximity plays a factor. She can get 180 damage in close, 120 damage when safe balled.
*
Ken:* None outside of corner.

M.Bison: Forward or RH scissors on block, all scenarios.
Slide on standing block, all scenarios.
Super on standing block, all scenarios (may be button dependent).

Makoto: Fierce hayate on block, all scenarios.

Rose: Fierce super on standing block, all scenarios.
Ultra #1 on standing block, all scenarios.

Rufus: Big Bang Typhoon on block, all scenarios.
Low fierce on block, can be safe balled on crouch. Randomly can be punished on crouch with step forward low fierce, inconsistent.

Ryu: Fierce super on hit or block, all scenarios.

Sagat: EX low tiger on standing block, can be safe balled.
Tiger Cannon on block, all scenarios.
Kara tiger uppercut on stand block, can be safe balled.

Sakura:
Dash -> lp.shouken on standing block.
May suffer from randomness, I have a very hard time getting this to work.

Seth: S.fierce on hit or block, all scenarios not involving counter hit.
EX kicks on block, all scenarios.
Super on block, all scenarios.
Tanden stream on hit or block, all scenarios.

*T.Hawk: * None outside of corners.

Vega: EX dive forward on block, all scenarios.
Splendid claw on hit or block, all scenarios.
Bloody high claw backwards on block, stage positioning a factor.
Dash forward, low strong on standing block, can be safe balled. Has randomness issues on crouch block.

*Zangief: * Kara ex glove on standing block. Can be safe balled, has randomness issues. Only consistent in close proximity.

Some quick notes on EX up ball and EX rainbow ball. The properties of these moves are better understood than the horizontal ball and there is no real trick to these like the safe ball, but for the sake of completion these will be included.
**
Flight of the EX up ball **
Common sense would dictate that stand vs. crouch and proximity would be the primary factors when punishing an EX up ball. If you block it standing at point blank range, you will recover slightly closer than if you blocked crouching at point blank range, which is closer than if you blocked it standing at the extreme edge of range (where the ball hits high in the head). Obviously this will affect the punish and your vulnerability. For example, vs. Ken in close if EX up ball is blocked, he can punish with immediate towards+forward. If he tries that when blocking it at max range, the immediate step kick will whiff.
HOWEVER (and here’s where it gets interesting). The height factor now also plays a part. When an EX up ball hits higher, the bounce back vertically now has to be taken into account. The higher the vertical retraction is, the less safe it is. As top Gen player Yeb noted, in vanilla, there were counter hit punishes that Gen had for EX up ball ONLY FROM DISTANCE. Up close there wasn’t enough time on counter hit; Blanka would hit the ground too quickly. As a general rule, further away is slightly less safe than up close. The extra time it takes to fall from a higher height, slightly outweighs the extra distance you gain. Of course, there are exceptions and some characters punishes simply can’t reach far enough, but that’s generally how it works.

Also, as with the horizontal ball, the up ball is not round, it is a rotating square (box data here: [media=youtube]g5w0YuEzMWs[/media] ). It would make sense that there would be some random element involved here, however I have not confirmed any differences that would relate to this. If I find something, I will update.

Primarily though, what Blanka players are concerned with is getting hit on the rebound after a hit. Prima lists EX up ball as -17 on hit and since the ranges involved are quite short, that?s a pretty significant number. There will be an EX up ball punishment list coming here eventually, might take some time though, especially considering height differences. I’ll do my best to compile a list as soon as possible, any situation specific help would be greatly appreciated.

Punishing EX up ball on hit
If there are distance issues, I will point them out. This list is currently under construction so if you have any added information, it would be greatly appreciated.

Abel:
Soulless. All distances.
Breathless. All distances.
Dash up, towards + fwd. Distance/CH dependent. Closer is more likely to hit you.

Adon:
Jaguar revolver. Damage may be distance dependent; at this point I cannot confirm if getting a full punish up close is possible.

Akuma:
Raging Demon Ultra, all distances.

Balrog:
Super, all distances.
Ultra 1, distance dependent

Blanka:
Fierce slide, close, may need a step forward at extreme max range.
Shout of Earth, ground version. May be situational, may not be…needs testing.

C.Viper:
EX seismo, distance dependent

Cammy:
Gyro drive smasher, all distances

Chun:
Hosenka, all distances.
Super, all distances.

Cody:
Last Dread Dust, all distances, timing changes to get all hits dependent on distances. May not be possible to get all hits from distance.
EX Ruffian kick
Short super

Dan:

Dee Jay:
RH super from close.

*Dhalsim: *
Yoga shangri-la up close.
S.fierce all distances.

Dudley:
Rolling thunder, timing is a factor, distance is a factor, reversal is not necessarily proper timing.

E.Honda:

El Fuerte:

Fei Long:
Fierce rekkaken all distances. Very difficult to get full rekka series.

Gen:
Super, all distances.
What Yeb said about needing more distance on counter hit likely true in this game as well.

Gouken:

Guile:
Ultra 2 possible from close. May suffer from some unknown randomness issues, has been proven to work, but on reversal timing is blocked more often than not? I don’t understand this fully.

Guy:
Run into slide, all distances.

Hakan:
Fierce slide, all distances.

Ibuki:

Juri:

Ken:
Towards + fwd. Counter hit and distance dependent.

M.Bison:

Makoto:

Rose:
Fierce super, may be distance dependent? Needs further confirmation.

*Rufus: *
Big Bang Typhoon, all distances.
Low fierce, all distances on normal hit. On counter hit, directly next to him becomes safe.

Ryu:
Super, all distances

Sagat:
Tiger Cannon, all distances. Becomes easier as distance increases.
On counter hit, directly next to him appears to be safe. Needs confirmation.

Seth:
S.fierce, may be CH dependent. Further away is easier.

T.Hawk:

Vega:
Splendid Claw, all distances.
Bloody High Claw, further away is easier, may not be possible up close, definitely not possible up close + CH.
Slide.

Zangief:
EX green glove, close. Kara EX glove needed from further range, possible even at max range.

Vulnerability of the EX rainbow roll.
The main/only interesting thing about EX rainbow roll is that it has initial invincibility on the first backhop, but that invincibility wears off before Blanka begins the controllable part of the parabola roll. So while Blanka players may use this as a get out of jail free card, the fact of the matter is that it is not and that in most cases, all the opponent has to do is just keep mashing.
While people (especially me) get away with just throwing it out when their backs touch the corner, this is a move that people will eventually catch on to. Once they do, this is a move that needs to be set up and not just thrown out. If you create space with movement before throwing the EX rainbow out, the brief vulnerability period can be avoided. Usually what you?re looking for is backhop into EX rainbow or low forward xx backhop into EX rainbow. You can also take advantage of the positive frames off of electricity to throw it out there and count on the opponent?s timing being off.
The move has lag time on land recovery time. A move such as Abel?s Soulless or Vega?s Splendid Claw can be thrown out near your landing time and catch you unless you swing the landing further than full screen.

Anyways, I hope this helped people out. Let me know if you find any errors or want something updated.

–Jay Snyder
Viscant@aol.com

This is the greatest thread/post ever made in this forum. Outstanding job viscant.

For summary purposes, the following characters can punish blanka balls on hit

Abel (needs ultra)
Balrog (needs super or when close)
Cammy
Chun-Li
Dhalsim
Gen (needs super)
Ryu (needs super)
Seth
Vega (needs ultra)

The following character’s entire library of counters to blanka balls can be safe ball’d give or take some “random” factor:

Gouken
Guile
Zangief

The following characters have no counters to blanka balls outside of corners:

Dan
Ken
Sakura
T.hawk

The following characters have very common counters that can be safe ball’d:

Blanka
Sagat

Prepare to eat shit after a blocked blanka ball from the rest of the cast not listed in these lists, and even some in the ‘safe’ lists that involve the random factor.

So in summary, safe ball should improve matches against: Gouken, Guile, Zangief, Mirrors, and Sagat. Fight everyone else like normal.

Ninja Edit: maybe improve is too much of a stretch, lets say safe ball increases your pool of options in matches where its viable.

Great write up Viscant. We appreciate your hard work.

Great write up man.

I’m pretty sure I read in another thread a while back that the reason is because hitboxes can overlap when starting that close to each other. And if Blanka’s hitbox is starting within the opponent’s instead of at the edge, it eats away at some of his recovery distance.

Nice write up, good work.

So in layman’s terms the matchup between Rog and Blanka isn’t quite as bad for Blanka? I should be using jab ball against rog.

Awesome post Viscant. Safe ball and lp ball are great in SSFIV.

Ibuki can do Neckbreaker on reaction to any Beast Ball and beat you clean, I believe. Beast Ball will only beat Neckbreaker if it starts entering recovery frames (you do a late Beast Ball on reaction to her Neckbreaker).

Everything I EVER wanted to know. thanks.

So I was doing some testing in training mode, and I learned that there are very variable differences on what we consider a “safe ball”.

The max distance I could find, I was able to safeball Sim’s standing fierce and Boxer’s jab dash punch(though I had trouble finding the perfect range more than a few times), which is a little insane. The setup I used was basically at the max range of cr.short, do cr.jab xx lp ball, and it pushed me out an extra tile and a half than a traditional safeball.

I haven’t done very comprehensive testing, one of the benefits was that at that range MP ball is actually a safeball. You don’t get maximum pushback, but it makes it pretty safe and you get the extra damage and such.

When I do a little more testing I’ll see if I can find any more things that are safeballable, that aren’t currently, and see if anything is baitable off of those setups. I’ll also see if I cna find the sweetspot at a convienent range, I know it is variable from character to character, which sucks, but I figure I can come up with something.

the reason is because when blanka reaches his active frames he’s ‘inside’ of sagat’s hitbox unlike when he’s far. when he’s far he’ll hit the ‘edge’ of sagat’s hitbox. while the pushback and blanka’s bounce back is the same he was closer to sagat when it hit so he’ll be a little closer to sagat when he bounces back and get smack w/ an low EX TS.

There are definitely some distances that are safer than the normal safe ball, but I can’t accurately map them out. Example of this happened in tournament yesterday vs. Genghis. Reversal Rose Ultra #1 from standing position missed my Blanka off an “extra safe ball” by at least 2-3 character lengths. It missed by so much, when I punished with Ultra 2, I got the lower damage version!

Still a lot of testing on things like this to do, I haven’t had a lot of time to test things due to my schedule getting crazy.

Also, I’m slowly/gradually filling in the EX up ball on hit punishes, although I guarantee that there’s probably as much omitted at the moment as there is inserted. If there are any oversights, let me know and I’ll fill them in.

–Jay Snyder
Viscant@aol.com

Was just looking over the list to see if anything was missing that I knew about.

Sakura
Dash -> lp.shouken
Can be safeballed, hell most balls are safe against it really, but it is 100% doable against certain setups. Most notably if a cl.lp is canceled into ball.

Don’t remember off handedly if you can crouch block and still land the shouken.

Great info Viscant. I know the moderators are not here, but can somebody sticky this shit lol.

idk how this happened, but when I did a fierce horizontal ball, It got blocked and punished by a reversal cannon spike. I shit you not.

Also abel’s dash-> foward kick punishes: [media=youtube]ZXhtitupdeI&feature=related[/media]

Shizuona Saikyo vs Dainama. You see it at :30.

Can anyone get Abel’s U2 to whiff against a Blanka ball on hit? I’ve got an idea for the spacing on block, but it seems like it’s always punishable on hit, even without reversal timing in some cases. Could be that I need to use a different strength ball though, cos I only setup the dummy to do fierce balls.

I also noticed something online. I EX Rainbow a Gouken and he parried the hit and the “interesting” part comes in. I bounced straight up in the air w/o taking damage. I can’t remember from this point on so I need someone (if they care enough) to recreate the situation, but I was still in EX Mode and I think I was still able to control Blanka just can’t hit Gouken. Gouken still absorbed his Focus damage from the EX ball as well

^ Gouken’s parry involves first a “hit absorb” part and then an “explosion” part. Some moves travel in such a way that they avoid the “explosion” part and don’t take damage. Certain characters can also hit Gouken’s parry inbetween the hit absorb and explosion, like Guile following his sonic boom, Bison’s EX headstomp, etc.

i couldnt consistantly get this punish, but midscreen sakura can punsh a horizontal ball on block by dashing forward and a light shoryuken. I got 1 of the following 3 things to happen:
1: i would get only the first hit of the shoryuken, which isnt safe for her unless she FADC’s into a full combo
2: i would get the whole shoryuken, resulting in a techable knockdown
3: It would whiff completely
4: im able to block

im assuming this is a timing issue, but those are the 4 things that can occur if she attempts this punish

EDIT: i didnt read through the post to see this was posted, so i guess this is just a more in depth version, i too am not sure if u can punish this way on crouch block