Online vs offline fighting games: The truth?

So this next Saturday, i’m going to play in an offline SF4 tournament, my first one. Up untill now, the only thing i have been doing is playing online. And as time went by, i heard and read a lot of shit about how stupid online play is. Being new to competitive playing, i got confused as hell… Why? Well;

One half of the people say that online play is totally different from offline. Things that don’t work offline are now somehow possible online, like for instance, the reversal mash-shoryukens breaking through everything and beating everything.
What that makes me wonder is, are the things that i am doing to win online not possible either? It makes me doubt every (lucky) hit i land, because it might as well be lag. Especially because i main Blanka, which is one of the most hated characters in the game i think. Not that i care, but maybe it is the online bullshit that makes him so hated…

The other half says they never have trouble with lag, and can just play finely. Which is where i probably would fit in. (Except for the play on PSN, that’s horrible for me) They also say that the people who complain about lag are scrubs and have to learn how to play. Or how to become better. The reason the opponent lost is because of his lack of skill, not because the lag screwed them over.

So now i just don’t know anymore. I tried a search about this but i couldn’t find anything, so i’m sorry if this has already been answered… Ultimately, i want to be good offline. But the offline SF community here in Holland is pretty shitty i believe so the thing i end up doing the most is playing online… But what purpose does it have, if the things that i am doing are maybe impossible offline?

What is the truth? What is the big difference between online and offline exactly?

Online requires less of effort to get into, and comes handy when theres no one around you who plays that specific game.
Online lag may create situations impossible for offline, especially in 3D MK games, they work completely different online, with different combos possible, different move properties, etc.

The easiest example of how lag affects gameplay, is: there is special move which is unsafe offline, because if you whiff it, opponent can react and punish you during that time window after whiff. Offline that time window shifts or shortens due to lag, that special move becomes safe and often spammable - the so called lag tactic

Some of it depends on whether the game has good netcode or not and the quality of your connection. For example:

GGPO-style netcode, connection between players good: Decent for practicing, but not quite as good as live play.

SF4 netcode, so-so connection: Pretty much pure shit.

For example, my experience with SF4 PC online in this part of the world is it is basically worthless. I have local friends I play online sometimes. We have a 4-5 bar connection. They usually beat me online 9-1. In person, I have an 8-2 advantage. Though some might call me a “scrub” for not being able to deal with lag, I personally see no value in learning to play wrong.

A lot of really scrubby bullshit works online in laggy situations that simply doesn’t fly in person. Like I’ve eaten pure bullshit random blanka ultras before because my block didn’t change due to input lag.

It depends on your connection. If you have a solid connection, training online might have some benefit. If you’re serious about upping your game though, meet some people at the tourney. You’ll learn much more playing face to face with people than online.

Generally the ones that say this are the lag abusers themselves.

Playing on GGPO/2DF, I generally have no problem playing with most people from the same country (or the US) but when it comes to Mexico, South America and other countries, it just becomes rediculous.

Lag can affect you in so many ways…

  1. Messes up your combos
  2. Messes up your counters to things that should have been punishable. There is an additional effect here…you start to second guess yourself if you should even attempt to punish things that you were generally confident to punish offline. It’s either attempt to punish in the lag and maybe counter it or eat another reversal, or just don’t try to punish it and let him get away with it
  3. When there is frame skip and warping (which happens on GGPO/2DF if the opponent is really laggy, but not PSN/Live) than you really start to question what is even happening on the screen. General result of this is that you get afraid and start to turtle up, letting the opponent get some free offense in the process
  4. Input delay lag not only ruins counters but makes you not be able to block some things on reaction. Things like walking forward and blocking after a move just to close the gap become risky because you don’t know when to stop walking to block, thanks to the delay

There’s many players online who seem to have tactics that revolve around the existence of lag and it’s pretty pathetic. It’s pretty clear these guys don’t actually care to improve their own play, but rather steal a few wins they never deserved.

Anyone berating you for not learning to play wrong and use the lag is either a scrub themselves or a psychic who is compensating for it by playing whilst looking a few fractions of a second into the future so that their reactions will always be on time.

Lag tends to screw up offline timing and make you shy away from trying to do stuff on reaction.

It depends on the game. Some games are affected much more from lag then others natively as well. Some games are flat out more lag tolerant then others.

Generally the problems Emil describes occur when lag goes beyond slight. In low lag those situations are rare enough that I don’t worry about it.

That said, while you can lose to lag, it’s rare, and generally only happens if the other guy is around your skill level, or you got real unlucky.

When lag gets bad though, it’s like an entirely different game.

For the OP, the biggest adjustment you’re going to have to make is not relying on bullshit that they know how to beat easily, that many online players don’t.

hey is it ture that playing on a realy big HD tv can cause lag also?

A lot of people talk about how bad online play is but I think seven times out of ten they’re just regurgitating what they’ve they’ve heard from players who are stronger than them.

There is a difference. There is definitely a difference. However, I’m pretty sure that most people don’t notice or understand it for themselves, even if they say they do. (Note that the nature and severity of the difference depends on the game in question along with its netcode and their server and your connection and your opponent etc. etc.)

When a fighting game’s online experience is visually smooth and suffers from no obvious slowdown or jarring choppiness, inexperienced players will typically not notice anything wrong. It usually takes an excruciating amount of input delay or input drops for them to notice. There are casual fans who believe that SF4 has better netcode than HDR because rollbacks look pretty freaky and if you never heard about the imitation-GGPO algorithm then of course yjdk.

Intermediate players are much more likely to notice a difference online. Maybe it’s slightly more difficult to correctly gauge which way to block when attacked with an ambiguous cross-up. Maybe it’s a little more difficult to properly nail a very tight punish (one with a very narrow window of opportunity). Maybe your combos become less consistent, especially ones that have very strict timing. Maybe you start blocking low and it’s a tiny bit harder to switch to high block for an overhead attack. Maybe you suddenly can’t rely on late techs to break throw attempts, and you find yourself just having to mash it out from the start. It works the other way too, like maybe you can get away with slower tricks or sloppier resets or more sluggish moves and still be effective, but maybe some of your quick try-and-make-the-other-guy-twitch fakes and mixups are completely ignored. The game can just feel a little different to control…

At higher levels (offline), there are players who will counter-poke (or parry or whatever) your normals on reaction. This shit absolutely does not happen online. Online they would just have to fish and guess to try and achieve the same thing, and in many instances the potential reward is simply not worth the risk, so that aspect of the game just gets cut out entirely.

If you’re just wondering about what things will be like at a real tournament in the context of SF4, you may notice nothing, or you may notice that many things are just a hair easier than you remembered. You can expect that defense will be a little better on the whole, because people simply have more time to react to stuff. This includes countering and punishing as well. It’s only a fraction of a second but it really can make a world of difference. People may be more confident and more willing to use hard-to-execute options and maneuvers. You might even notice that people are trying more little slippery teases and baits and mindfucks too. Of course these are all maybes because it really depends on how experienced and/or sensitive you are and who you play against when you’re there.

Anyway, I hope that makes some sense and I hope that helps you and anyone else. It’s pretty tough to explain, especially since I don’t understand it all that well myself. I’m not a high-level player, so guess what? I’m just regurgitating what I’ve heard from players who are stronger than me! :lol:

(Oh, remember that this is all omitting the fact that the average player at a well-attended tournament is usually already heads above the average player online. This is because the average player who came out to a competitive gathering tends to be much more serious about the game than the average player who is sitting on his couch at home.)

Well, http://forums.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=174085

There is a big difference, I played nothing but online til a couple weeks ago and missed all my links and shit, but a few hours of practice and i was good.

Just like playing on a laggy TV when you normally dont, you can compensate as long as you practice before your matches. Amount of practice required will vary of course, but you will be in heaven once you acclimate yourself. 90% of the game can be practiced well online as long as your connection is good, IMO. The other 10% will be your ability to adapt to the change in environment (in terms of lag and atmosphere), pressure and competition.

One thing about tournament play is that you’ll find far smarter players that don’t use or fall for the same shenanigans as online folks both do or fall for. YMMV, but it doesn’t get any better than offline tournament play, IMO. Good luck man, you’ll have a blast.

Benefit of online is:
If there is some guy who is really good but lives on other continent, while everyone who lives closer to you are mediocre players (and playing vs CPU sucks by default) - you are better playing that guy online if you want to become better

Allright, thnx everyone! Certainly cleared a lot up for me. I did notice things like not being able to block a projectile on reaction after moving forward.

Yeah, what has been bothering me as well is the priority of moves online… Does it change? I mean, take for instance a flowchart Ken. He might be doing HP Shoryuken all day long, and i’ve heard people say things among the lines of “Shoryuken beats everything online”…
I find that unlikely but… If that were to be true… The whole game would change when switching to offline!

Oh yes, reversals are so easy to bait online that i allways instinctevily do a backwards hop, leaving me vulnerable for attacks… Falling into bad habits i guess.
Personally, i try not to rely on bullshit when playing online, but there is no way of knowing if, for instance, that reversal ultra on wake up i just landed was bullshit… i mean, if i do it, i get a free ultra 75% of the time. (I did know that those ultra’s don’t really work, just an example here)

Guess the best way to find all this out and truly understand it is to attend as many offline matches as possible huh?

Like you, I was at my first offline tournament a few days ago … with my only prior experience being several months of online play.

Personally I think both the people who say “All online play is a joke” and the ones who say “online play is just fine, I never have any lag” are both full of crap.

You will notice a difference … it will probably not be earth-shattering. But between the quality of the players and the lack of lag, the whole experience is just so much more solid.

Ultimately, if you’ve taken it upon yourself to develop solid gameplay, you’ll do fine. You will probably lose a lot of matches, and you’ll probably be nervous as hell, but … do your best to enjoy it!

This happens to me a lot. Thats why I dont play online.

EDIT: I have been an arcade cabinet player all my life that maybe is why I suck playin online.

heres what I think of online v offline fighting… and this is because I started playing 3rd strike at the arcade at my school. I think that people play better offline because one feels theres more of a risk involved. what i mean by this, is that your more aware and more alert of what you or the person u are playing is going to do. for instance when I play 3rd strike at school, I have the risk of losing, waiting for my turn to play again and losing a quarter. so i am more on my game than I am when i’m playing 3rd strike at home, because I have nothing to lose online. the games free online, I can try as many times as I want, and if someone beats me i’ll be whatever. Sure I learn new things online from other people, but I feel I don’t always play my full potential and yeah, online lag can be a factor, but I don’t think thats the priority on this topic.

On a purely technical side of things, I’ve had a good experience with SF4 online. My combos come out like they should, and I haven’t experienced any lag on a solid connection.

I think the difference between online and offline is the quality of the players. You’ll find some good players online, but you’ll find some crap ones too (flowchart Kens, rapid fire users, ragequitters, etc.). At least in offline play, you won’t find ragequitters, and rapid fire is usually banned. You might still get some bad players, but at least they can’t use cheap tactics like they could online. And since they’re in person, they can’t be jerks.

Once you get into your offline scene, you’ll understand why people badmouth online play. No matter how good the netcode is we just don’t have access to technology for an offline-perfect online experience. There’s almost always some input lag even if you can’t consciously notice it. If you exclusively play online, then you won’t be used to offline timing in tournaments and it’ll throw you off.

It’s best to treat online matchmaking as an extension of training mode where you can casually learn your character’s match-ups and leave it at that.

Well, I can tell you from experience that if you’re the type of player that reads and uses frame data and is capable of implementing just inputs, then there is a world of difference between online and offline play. I don’t even bother with online play; I’d rather not play at all then water down my playstyle and make bad habits by playing online. I don’t feel that way about all online gaming, but fighting games are out of the question until the lag issue is overcome.

^ deadfrog hit the nail on the head, great post.

Agreed, deadfrog nailed it. Nice.

There is a difference for sure, and if you aren’t playing plenty of offline games and 4-5bar games (SF4) you’ll be at a disadvantage.

But, the people who write off online are just plain wrong. I know several top players that play a ton online. And can’t think of a single top American who I haven’t heard of playing online. Would they all do it if it ruins your game? There’s a lot to be said for the variety of competition to be found online, especially if you meet people IRL or on here. Two bars is trash, you can get something from three bars although it’s far from perfect. 4-5 bars is great practice and the people who say otherwise are being elitist IMO. Even Ed Ma, who is notorious for noticing and complaining about tiny amounts of lag, plays online.