I can understand why the throws grab limbs since I see it all the time right before the grab animation, an extended jab is caught by a throw just before it actually hits due to an imediate active hitbox, I don’t understand why though, even with you explaining the mechanics the frames don’t add up. 4F throw out of -2 is 6f, which is twice as slow as the startup of a jab which should be hitting at the 3rd frame, how do you manage frame-wise to grab a jab? With Adon I can space a jagga kick to an almost max jab point and then kara back throw them out of stuff.
Thanks again, this is a lot of insight of how technical Oni is.
Been using Oni for about half a week now, I freaking love this guy! I see a few people saying that he’s a lot worse now than he was in 2012 though, which I guess kind of sucks. Does everyone think hes worse now or is that just a matter of perspective?
Also wondering, what kind of combo do you normally go for when the opponent is crouching? I know you can do cr. lp > b.mp > lk slash, or cr.lp > c. HP > tatsu, or you can just do an FADC after a slash for some extended damage. What does everyone here typically go for?
although this is a balrog vid, this will illuminate how some of the system mechanics work for frame traps hit boxes, hurtboxes, and grab boxes. it probably has something to do with the extended jab not overlapping its hitbox with your strike hurtbox, and grabs not having the hurtbox to be hit by the jab and grabbing the grab box. in the end its best not to try too hard to think about it because your head will explode, and just cement in your head that you can grab jabs.
i go crouch light punch, back med into slash fadc crouch light punch, crouch hard punch slash or tatsu.
or just crouch light punch, crouch hard punch light kick slash fadc.
if you have the handspeed you can do anything into back med punch or stand med kick(1st hit) into med kick tatsu first hit(the knee) fadc into whatever. the first hit of med kick tatsu(the knee) forces stand and gives you a ton of frame advantage on hit fadc to combo. its what i use for when Im in a really laggy connection.
oni is worse because his dps got nerfed because of his ability to fadc them UNSAFELY forward or back. he can get full ultra and super punished by most of the cast for going back because hes -8 half a box away from the opponent.
the damage and stun on his slashes got nerfed probably because of the introduction of red focus and possible instant stun combos that could have been.
his stomps got nerfed so now hes grounded on his lk stomp 1st frame so you wont be air reset if you get stuffed out you can be comboed. his mk stomp lost its invincibility on its 1st frame. his cross up slash, fireball, step kick, and sweep buffs werent buffs that anyone were asking for, they just buffed some really shit aspects of his game to be not so shit. the fact that you can juggle off of his light dp into ultra is moot, because the spacing is so specific and you have to hit the opponent so high in the jump and you have to be a specific distance from the corner. his health nerf was unjustified imo.
the buffs to oni didn’t change any of his bad matchups because they werent game changing in the least. you cant name one buff where you looked at it and said oh this will be good for that matchup. his big damage is now replicable by half the cast with the introduction of red focus combos, and oni still has the same problems as in 2012, bad walk speed, very bad backdash, bad focus charge times, bad footsy normals, bad unsafe mixups, and a bad fireball. what does it say about a character when the top player Overmostheads doesnt use stomps and cross up slashes in high level play because theyre so unsafe? hes basically playing without half the characters movellist.
in my honest opinion if you have an evil ryu, you should stick with him instead of oni, anything oni can do evil ryu can do better or match, he has better walkspeed, back dash, focus, equal or better damage, better kara throw, more mobility.
evil ryu can punish better then oni he can juggle off any anti air dp or jump med punch anywhere on screen into ultra, any combo into any wheel kick or fireball can be redfocus into a free crumple. the execution required for evil ryu is a little higher but right now its worth it. you trade combo and block string variety for a more solid effective character.
You can’t throw someone who’s trying to jab you from -2, but if you are spaced far enough that their jab whiffs, there’s nothing stopping you. Also, Adon’s Jaguar Kick can hit later in its animation, making the frame advantage better than listed (AKA meaty). Record the dummy doing the Jaguar Kick from point blank range, then throwing. Then get Balrog to to block the Jaguar Kick up close and cr.lp. Balrog’s cr.lp will win.
tl;dr Normals, including jabs, only lose to throws if they hit at the exact same time. You can’t throw people out of most blockstrings.
Oni’s not technical at all compared to other characters.
do you mean technical as in execution? if so then you are right hes pretty easy execution wise. If you mean spacing oni doesn’t have anything too too spacing heavy on knockdown because he lacks the knockdown frame frame advantage and spacing to make anything happen. for certain matchups it is a requirement that oni have his spacing down because his walkspeed and midrange normals are ass, eg chun and rose matchups, you have to be standing at the exact spacing to be able to focus in on one of their normals to punish. his fireball spacing in general is just really bad so you have to err on the safe 3/4 to full screen spacing to make it viable.
if you mean technical in the blockstring/frame trap conditioning and reading your opponents button pressing habits i would argue hes up there with duddles with all the mental hoops n shit you gotta go through to figure out what button to press and how much to delay by.
In his changelist I saw that a bunch of moves were either 1 frame faster or did 10 more/damage. Nothing seemed to change, it just looked like Capcom made a bunch of small changes so the Oni players wouldn’t complain about every other character getting buffed while Oni stayed the same.
I never knew about his bad backdash but if that is the case then shoryuken>FADC on block is almost useless. You could either do a full dp and have them punish it with anything they wanted, like their ultra, or fadc forward dash so they had to do a small punish. 2 bars to still take damage
I used to play Evil Ryu but I dropped him cause everyone else jumped on the bandwagon. I do feel like Oni has a couple more options in terms of attacks in the mid game, but Evil Ryu is more stable and perhaps much better overall. Given that you say that he has bad footsy normals, and that I have no idea which moves of his to use for pokes and whiff punishes, what would you say is best for footsies? What do you poke and whiff punish with?
i say onis footsy normals are bad because they are low damage per single hit, have bad hitboxes and have very low hitstun. what this means is that you have to have your buffers super tight when trying to cancel into stuff from pokes, and that the timing you need to have to out footsy ppl online is retarded. you cant throw out normals willy nilly like with other characters and win off random button presses(cough charge characters/rose/makoto) this is what makes oni a crappy online character imo.
however if you really want to know, his close pokes are forward light punch, forward lightkick, stand jab, crouch jab, crouch lightkick and back med punch. these you should be confirming into another normals whether you hit or got blocked, on hit go into slash or tatsu fadc, on block go into fireball.
onis footsy normals at the midrange are stand medium punch, stand medium kick, stand lightkick, crouch med punch and crouch medium kick(to an extent). all of these are special cancellable, and you should be buffering fireball or electric from stand med punch and stand med kick and stand lightkick and crouch med punch because its the safest option. buffering into slash from these normals isnt a true string and you can get uppercutted or command grabbed in between, also the slash might wiff if buffered from too far. i mention crouch medium kick because it is a good footsy button but it is very bad focus bait. the lag between the crouch med kick into fireball means that if the opponent focuses the med kick and releases you will get crumpled before your fireball comes out.
from far range his forward hard kick and forward hardpunch and step kick are his go to buttons but again they are focus bait(if you have super stocked you can cancel into super if you see them focus)
his wiff punish normals at close range are crouch light punch and kick combo into back med punch or TC2 into slash or tatsu, and stand light kick combo into fireball or tatsu , and back med punch into whatever. at med range you wiff punish with forward lightpunch or stand med punch or crouch med kick. at far range you wiff punish with forward hardpunch, forward hardkick, or crouch hardkick.
-edit
about the health nerf, i really feel it was unecessary, I have shown defensively DP FADC hasnt given oni anything and his big damage isnt something unique to him because damage has gone up for most of the cast.
oni has to take a lot of damage to work his way in because of his poor mobility. often times it feels like your playing him a like a grappler and slowly but surely moving the opponent into the corner with weak damage normal pokes and fireballs. while onis health has gone down 50, damage has gone up universally for the rest of the cast. ppl now have access to 3 bar no execution ultra combos, all of the new characters have access to 1 meter or no meter into ultra. alot of the cast gained cool new damaging bnbs or punish combos. this is why oni seems to be dying so much faster now.
The biggest problem for me is that they can be focused super easily, and they come out slow and recover slowly as well making it easy to get around them. As a Bison player, I know a thing or two about pressing random buttons
I also find that even on hit, cr. mk into fireball won’t even combo, it’s odd. I haven’t seen cr.mp used as a poke, does it have a good hitbox? Also, would buffering an attack into electric fireball still be a block string? I assumed that’d be worse than buffering into slash lol
Man…his whiff punishes sound pretty bad. Not so much because of the damage but because hit normals are a bit slow, so it seems like it’d be pretty difficult to whiff punish with some of these moves; let alone combo after them
when ppl start focusing your cancellable normals thats when you start cancelling into slash or do a quick kara throw to blow up their focus. at midrange if they like to focus a lot and you cant get the timing to cancel into a slash or throw, spamming stand medium kick blows up a lot of focus because its 2 hits.
crouch medium kick is crappy in that the distances and instances in which it will combo into fireball is wierd sometimes. sadly its one of the only ways youll be able to lowcheck someone into big damage via fireball fadc. his crouch medium kick also low profiles him so for certain matchups you will be relying on it heavily. against akuma on knockdown do a 3 button tech with crouch medium kick to blow up any cross up tatsu/palm land throw mixups. against viper low profile her burnkicks on reaction. against sagat you need to know the spacing sagat will tiger knee and low medium underneath it and punish. against T-hawk low medium kick under condore spires so you avoid the blockstun and punish.
cancelling into electric fireballs is done in instances when you push yourself out to med to close med range and you notice the other guy likes to press buttons at the end of your strings. or the guy is a habitual focuser and has a short focus attack range you can cancel into electric to blow it up. if you do land an electric fireball you can do an instant air demon for style points.
his wiff punishes are pretty bad, at most your going to be interrupting the attacks before they come out and buffering specials off them then fadcing them into combos. the timing you need online is a pain because his normals are slow, have no active frames, and bad recovery. your gonna have to pull some smugdabeast like reads with your stand med punch and stand lightkick cancels to make stuff happen.
edit-crouch medium punch works in the range between where youd use back medium punch and crouch medium kick. it is good to use against pokes that have lower body invincibility like roses mk and hk pokes, or codys crack kicks. if you have the reactions stand med kick can be used in the same way but youd have to cancel into fireball or tatsu off the first hit. cancelling into mk tatsu off pokes is great in that it forces stand and saves having to fadc into another string that uses crouch hardpunch just to force stand.
I have to say, it really feels good to know that I’m not the only one really disapointed with how Oni turned out in Ultra. When it was annonced, I was happy : no one played him in tournaments, only good things could happen to him. Then we know how it turned out to be, Wao came, Wao did great in one Topanga, and know Wao is dropping Oni. GG Capcom.
I just don’t understand how they could take out so much of the fun playing him, and not listening AT ALL of the fan requests. I remember the 2 most asked things were :
A safe wake up option ==> Fail. As showed before, the FADC Shoryu is almost completely useless (I never use it, except on laggy connections…)
His U2 motion to be change to a double quarter motion, ala E. Ryu in order to be able to react on jump ins more easily and be more comboable in a real match ==> Fail. Before, if you missed the input an EX Shoryu would come out, still working as an anti air and comboable if you missed your combo. No, with the new motion, if you screw up and EX electric ball comes out, which really makes you dead meat against a jumping attack. So you fear to use it. Again, GG Capcom.
Instead, we got nerfed on his most used move, on his damage output, and as much as iportant, his stun ouput. Really, Why ?
Plus, I really feel some of his hitboxes were reduced. back MP feels weird, especially against the new cast members, against whom I sometimes just can’t link c.HP into light slash, whatever the distance.
Adding the health nerf that I really can’t explain, when I’m facing E. Ryu, where I used to have 100 more life (!), now we have the SAME (!!!). And I’m seriously asking this : what does Oni have that E. Ryu don’t or can’t do better ? (Except the air dash/demon)
Feeling more and more betrayed and sad the more I play… So, final question : Can we hope that by the disc release they will change some stuff ?
I feel you on the U2 motion. Now that electric comes out instead of ex dp if you get the motion wrong I dont use it anymore. his back mp punch feels the same, its just the new characters all have wonky hit and hurt boxes. a lot of characters attacks randomly wiff in blockstrings and in combos on certain characters.
if i had it my way i would have Capcom remove onis cross up slash, and take away stomps/make unusable outside of combos, in exchange for better normal hitbox and frame datas. take his air dashes out too, fucking useless.
Airdashes are fun for baiting DPs and are fantastic for Ultra 1. That being said, I’ve never used the medium one or seen it used in tournament, and the light is exclusively to cancel into tatsu, so it’s an extremely linear move. I think they’re fine as is.
If you disagree with me and insist they’re completely useless then just don’t use them. They don’t mess with other motions since it’s air-only, and having an extra option never hurts.
The best thing about air dashes is that when you have super stocked you pretty much have air dominance with jump airdash super. also the ability it gives you to fuck with the opponents anti air ultra(fuck you hakkan and seth ultra 2) on soft knockdown if you jump in and medium air dash you can get a gimmicky air dash tatsu that can mess with the opponents block/walk animation. if they made the descent of onis air tatsu from air dash faster and improved the hitbox so you can consistently hit crouching opponents/small opponents then it would be more useful.
Agreed, the best thing about his air dash for me is baiting a DP while having a super : just buff lp lp, and if he DP, you can just press simultaneously back-lk-hp
Well I’m not saying they are useless. I just wish they offered something meter-less in air to air scenarios like Chun j.HP>HP or Gouken/Hakan/Ryu/Seth/Bison j.MP.
After a couple weeks with Oni I’m still not using his slash properly - I only use it in fadc combos and after a throw to close the distance. I know light slash can be used as a frame trap (also i do get jabbed out of it sometimes), and its relatively safe on block (although it is still negative), but I don’t know when to properly use it. I am afraid of using it, and then having to block after doing it given that they have frame advantage. Is this mindset incorrect or is there a proper way to use the slash?
you shouldnt be using light slash as a poke, the hitbox and range and start up arent good like roses soul drill or whatever. it is good to use light/medium slash against ppl with armor moves to break it(hugo, balrog, fuerte) it is a hard read though. med and light slash are good for focus backdash spammers (gen, evil ryu, dudley) again a hard read because if you wiff or get blocked you will get punished.
after forward throw med slash sets up a meaty throw or med punch or stomp set up. after forward throw or anti air forward hard kick you can light slash, then dp into fireballs to build meter.
if you have super you can get a slash blocked or wiffed and gimmick that out.
