(OLD) Ken General Discussion Thread (Combos, Techniques, etc.)

[Dr.Chaos]

I don’t frequent these boards enough to be sure but I haven’t seen much talk about ken’s other karas.

His kara fireball is a good way to safely close ground when in fireball wars. Ken generally can’t win these wars so his goal is usually to get close safely. Kara fireball seems like a natural tool to use.

His kara fierce dp has many potential applications.

The most practical one is in his bread and butter combos. Against some characters at some ranges even a simple cr.lk cr.lp hp.srk will not combo correctly. Sometimes the first hit will connect and the last 2 hits will miss which often results in your death. It’s quite easy to do a kara hp.srk here instead which afaict will never miss any hits as long as you’re linking off a cr.lp hit. There is a small trick here to prevent accidental supers. While doing your cr.lp hold df instead of d, then when you hit your last cr.lp simply press f, qcf+mk~hp. An easy way to see the benefits is to go to training mode vs akuma walk up and do cr.lp x 4 and then kara hp.srk.

Another application is to make his step kick a potent ch weapon. If you start a step kick from a bit outside of far standing hk range hold forward and if you see counter hit simply qcf+mk~hp the timing is a bit strict. The rewards should be obvious, you get 215 damage instead of 145 and a knockdown instead of being at -1. This is also the range that cr.mk hp.fb won’t combo and if you try for it against someone who is ready you could eat massive damage.

How do you kara hado and kara shoryu? :wonder:

I’ve been practicing ken reading up on some frame data and hopefully some of these tidbits should help with evolving his metagame. Half the stuff you guys probably already know, but hey, doesn’t hurt to review.

• Karaing with f+:mk: gives you more range than karaing with f+:hk:

• Level 2 focus into c.:lk: is a legit block string. After the level 2 focus and the dash in, Ken is at plus 4 frame advantage. C.:lk: hits on frame 3. Combine this with Kara FA, and you have another solid way to get in close. I think any 4 frame move should do as well, but since c.lk is faster, you can be one frame late and still be safe.

• Ken’s sweep(c:hk:) looks really good on frame data and has good range. Comes out on 8 frames, -6 on block. Max range blocked can only be punished by things like Ryu’s Super. Basically like Rufus’s sweep but 4 frames faster. And Rufus’s sweep is pretty good.

• Cross up HP seems a lot easier to land with Ken rather than Ryu. Definitely feels like one of Ken’s stronger and tricker tools since the opponent must block the HP forward then must block the other way(like a third strike cross up).

• A grab set up I saw in a Japanese vid. After a forward grab, immediately jump over your opponent then neutral jump. HK tatsu at the peak of your jump. The HK tatsu should move him forward and Ken should cross up the opponent. I’ll make a video of this soon, it’s much easier to see rather than explain.

@Jaeger: Didn’t know you can Kara his special moves. Awesome!

-Jump in fierce cross up or not is the Sagat Killer!

• I think this is what your talking about [media=youtube]64iuNHUgPj8#t=2m50s[/media]

Dr. Chaos; I have one thing to say to him: “Sweep the low forward!”

[media=youtube]9fWvub_WBho[/media] :pleased:

[khayri]

^lol…

[System_1]

chaos:

kara fireball:
:qcf::mk:~:hp:

kara shoryu:
:r::qcf::mk:~:hp:

There is also a possible option select with
:r::qcf::mk:~:mp:

It is a quick kara focus attack canceled into a forward dash on wiff but if you absorb something it stays in the focus attack… not sure what it would be useful for yet.

[highlulu]

-Jump in fierce cross up or not is the Sagat Killer!

• I think this is what your talking about [media=youtube]64iuNHUgPj8#t=2m50s[/media]

wow that is some good oki right there… makes me want to work even harder with ken. between working on lk tatsu setups, hk tatsu setups, ex kara setups and ex kara setups. (ichi used a kara-tatsu to soar right over sim’s super:looney:)

chaos:

kara fireball:
:qcf::mk:~:hp:

kara shoryu:
:r::qcf::mk:~:hp:

There is also a possible option select with
:r::qcf::mk:~:mp:

It is a quick kara focus attack canceled into a forward dash on wiff but if you absorb something it stays in the focus attack… not sure what it would be useful for yet.

he was being sarcastic. all of kens kara’s are done with f+mk a fraction of a second before the actual attack input. that being said i think that is the first time i have seen it done with the inputs so that will help some.

[OmniCloud]

chaos:

kara fireball:
:qcf::mk:~:hp:

kara shoryu:
:r::qcf::mk:~:hp:

There is also a possible option select with
:r::qcf::mk:~:mp:

It is a quick kara focus attack canceled into a forward dash on wiff but if you absorb something it stays in the focus attack… not sure what it would be useful for yet.

kara FB maybe practical but I’m not sure were to use kara shoryu as the range doesn’t increase that much. If only it did the same thing as Sagat’s Kara TU lol…

btw–the only reason I say kara FB maybe practical is because of how hard it is to do. For some reason, I can’t get it out when I want like Kara throw. It might just be a matter of getting used to. But yeah it would be nice if you could get out of FB wars by absorbing then throwing a FB of your own right after ward.

[System_1]

Does anyone know if you can Kara an MP DP? I can only get kara focus out of it… just curious.

[_shoryu]

Kara it with f+:hk:. Shorter range but I don’t think karaing with f+:mk: is possible because you just get kara focus. UNLESS someone has really super fast and perfect inputs.

[System_1]

I believe technically you can kara strong shoryu with step kick. You would have to do it like an akira knee where you press :mk: for one frame then release it and press :mp: the next frame. As ??shoryu said kara off of f+hk is easy. That said, I can’t think of any practical reason to kara a strong shoryu.

As I posted before in post #707 the main purpose I see is to use kara fierce shoryu in combos every time you are at least at +4 and you were going to link into fierce shoryu.

Kara fireball is quite easy to do.

[System_1]

I was thinking maybe using a kara MP DP would increase its effective anti-air range, since I would rather use MP DP for anti-air than FP DP.

[Rambis]

chaos:

kara fireball:
:qcf::mk:~:hp:

kara shoryu:
:r::qcf::mk:~:hp:

There is also a possible option select with
:r::qcf::mk:~:mp:

It is a quick kara focus attack canceled into a forward dash on wiff but if you absorb something it stays in the focus attack… not sure what it would be useful for yet.

This is good info, maybe use the kara fb to get in on shotos in fb wars? I was trying to
cr.:mk::qcf::mk:~:hp: from outside the normal range but wasn’t having any luck. The kara dp seems to have good range, I could hit it for 3 just outside of my cr.:mk: distance so maybe I can use it as a counter after I bait a poke and FADC full ultra.

[System_1]

You won’t be able to kara fb after low forward because low forward, fireball is a cancel not a link.

[Gramas]

-Jump in fierce cross up or not is the Sagat Killer!

• I think this is what your talking about [media=youtube]64iuNHUgPj8#t=2m50s[/media]

why he didn’t fadc ultra that ch shoryu

nice setups btw

[xCPx]

Any chance you have a video of the cross up Fierce because ive never heard/seen it before? Also whats the mix up with it / does it beat auto correct dps?

[Ramza126]

With the kara srk, would it be possible to add more hits to ken’s hit confirm BnB? Usually I do cr.short, cr.jab, cr.jab, link to fierce srk. Could you maybe do 4 hits and then kara fierce srk? I think on some characters you can do 4 hits, then when you link to fierce srk only two hits of the srk connect?

[System_1]

Ramza126, you could if you could get close enough. I know that Blanka and Akuma are examples but I can’t think of any viable situation where you will be close enough in a match to hit 4x cr.short/jab. And if there were I don’t think it wouldn’t qualify for bnb status.

The most practical application IMO is to use in the same bnb combos but make them more reliable at various ranges. For example many characters move back some during their get up animation so you can’t be point blank to get a full combo with meaty low short. The most blatant is balrog. Sweep him walk up and cr.short cr.jab fierce.shoryu on wakeup.

[maChubbyBeaver]

quick question: how do you perform the air kara ex tatsu???

i’ve gotten down the throw, focus, fireball, and a little of the SRK…but i’m having sooo much trouble with this one

[kaneka]

quick question: how do you perform the air kara ex tatsu???

i’ve gotten down the throw, focus, fireball, and a little of the SRK…but i’m having sooo much trouble with this one

From gunslinger’s post:

Executed by doing a regular TATSU but using a 'piano' technique by immediately pressing another kick afterwards. eg. Piano from rh to mk - rh will execute the normal TATSU sending you forward and the mk will then TRANSFORM the TATSU into a EX.

o If jumping forward over the opponents projectile but still outside of striking range… kara-TATSU will get you the distance. And you can combo off it too.

[Jtwelve]

From gunslinger’s post:

Executed by doing a regular TATSU but using a 'piano' technique by immediately pressing another kick afterwards. eg. Piano from rh to mk - rh will execute the normal TATSU sending you forward and the mk will then TRANSFORM the TATSU into a EX.

o If jumping forward over the opponents projectile but still outside of striking range… kara-TATSU will get you the distance. And you can combo off it too.

never knew that, will mess around with that.

[Ramza126]

Executed by doing a regular TATSU but using a 'piano' technique by immediately pressing another kick afterwards. eg. Piano from rh to mk - rh will execute the normal TATSU sending you forward and the mk will then TRANSFORM the TATSU into a EX.

How do you do a normal kara tatsu? I still haven’t tried the kara tatsu yet since I don’t know how it looks or if I’m doing it right or whatever, any videos or anything?

Also, regarding Ken’s step kick, could someone offer any info on its application and usage? Thanks

Also, question regarding jump ins. I’ve been doing this a lot lately, and would appreciate any feedback. I jump in with a fierce/roundhouse, but time it so that if the opp does nothing it hits them and I do a string/go for throw. But if they do a reversal attempt I land. I’m familiar with safe jumping in ST but is it really consistent and even as effective in SFIV?

[Apollo]

[media=youtube]s2qX_81J5nk[/media]

here ya go. props to gilley for showing the different spacing. watch for kens hands going up in the air thats the kara. the description tells you what order her does the tatsu’s in.