(OLD) "Dear Doctor!" Ken Match-up and Insight: Ask a question, get an answer!

Classic Fighting Games Ultra Street Fighter IV
81

Can anyone help me with Balrog? I read the old thread, but it got nothing really like defense breaking. Just anticipate of course and counter.

To me balrog feels like the most overpowered char in the game/bad match up for me, cause all I see balrogs do is his jab or w/e to headbutt combo. Which is pretty easy to connect it seems due to his jabs being so good. He feels like a tank when you face him on the ground, and one that knows how to anti air well completely defeats me.

It just feels so easy to do his combo into ultra it pisses me off lol.

Are there any tips or more so against him? Or what I can do > : I know the obvious as in bait a head butt and strike back, since thats the unsavest move of his if missed.

And lulu nice, I see you got full rep bar C: Im not sure if you already had that but thought it was 80% before lol. Looks awesome.

And edit: Small thing. You guys are talkjing about -2 frame advantage, so that means that anything that hits between 0-2 frames can hit him before he recovers right? And if he is at a -4, I can basically grab or jab so the say? I really need to learn how to put frame date to good use. I know the frames of recovery and active and stuff, but hm, I need to learn how to combine it with my opponents.

82

I feel your pain bud. Balrog is my nemesis personally. Well a patient Sim is far, far worse and I frankly, I don’t mind losing to, skill. I’m just seeing so many more Rogs lately and most of em are just waiting to combo into the ultra, regardless if they even time it right.

Rog vs. Ken is a tough fight, especially if they have any skill. Best I can suggest (and work on myself) is to be patient punish if the chance presents itself. Get some kind of early lead if possible and keep mixing your game up. That lead in health will cause him to be more aggressive which will open up opportunities and by being unpredictable you make it harder for him to turtle.

Teach each him to fear the kara-throw, and when he does he’ll start tossing out those jabs, srk him. And if possible fadc > ultra that srk. They may toss out those huge overhand or low bombs but, with practice you can learn to react properly and punish him. Perhaps trying the practice mode with balrog droppin’ bombs you’ll get the timing down.

The main thing is to keep him guessing, and if you are in range mix it up with throws, well timed cross-ups and respect his headbutt. Keep that guard up. Reset his charge. Don’t establish a pattern unless you are simply baiting him.

Vs. The Turtle Balrog…the one’s that just jump over and absorb FB and AA you all the while staying at fullscreen distance, I just dunno. I’ve had some luck simply chucking FBs while inching closer and closer to the turtle. Sometimes the chip damage turns the tide or they offer some sort of opening. Like a baited headbutt.

That all said, I’m no Ken expert so if I’ve offered badvice, my genuine apologies and I hope someone corrects me sooner than later for all our sakes.

I personally could really use help countering:
Sagat’s elbow jump in.
Vegas/Fuertes that dive all over the map, all fight long.
Ehondas Sumo Flop, both while I’m on the knocked down, and can Ken stuff it if with anything while already airborne? Like Guile’s flash kick or Balrogs headbutt can be?
Lastly any advice on countering that fullscreen EX crotch in face throw Cammy does would be most appreciated.

My heartfelt thanks and respect to all you Kens out there.

83

I should have been more clear but air tatsu advice was for air to air battle - jumping Hondas and not to get you in close. It works well as a cross up also, especially for Honda.

Crossing up Honda is no more difficult than crossing up a shoto with their DP. It is not automatic but with proper setup I don’t see why not.

I think you made an assumption here. I meant by a good offensive weapon that - it can counter FB traps in certain ranges, can be safe in certain situations, can get you out of the corner, counter to certain jump in, can be used to bait to command throw, etc.

And can you elaborate on the Focusing thing. Are you pre Focusing or focusing the second part of the splash assuming you are not in a block stun from the first part?

84

first point is not true, if honda is level or higher than you expect air tatsu to get stuffed by a well timed neutral strong or fierce punch depending on the range, it can work SOMETIMES if your higher than honda in the air or if he’s late but i wouldn’t bank on it.

you shouldn’t be fireball trapping with ken vs. honda but it will punish it if you have that brain fart. the quick command throws actually punish it altogether, regardless of strength (honda’s rarely if ever use it on gief). as for focus’ing it, i could be wrong but it shouldn’t ever put you in block stun long enough on the first hit (the way up) to where you wouldn’t get a chance to focus the hit down. you want your focus to come out on the way down. obviously just about anything honda does can reversal you if you attack first and give him what he wants.

but my main theme here… is don’t give honda what he wants, don’t close distance for him, and don’t rush into his treasure trove unless he doesn’t have his charges, and even then do a hit and run. as soon as you lose the advantage you need to get out quickly.

85

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Air Tatsu was probably Chaos best weapon in this match.

I am not saying FB trapping with Ken but FB sometimes OK to keep Honda’s headbutt in check at certain distances. You have to keep him honest.

The block stun (lk for sure) is long enough that the timing is tight just to get a FA 1 out let alone a FA 2. With his command throw, it can be dangerous to block -> FA -> counter.

I like FAing Sumo Splash if it is the the hk one as it gives you decent time to react properly.

But as my original post said, with Honda you have to make sure you minimize the opportunity to charge his moves. Making him come forward is the best general tactic for him. He still has great pokes from his normals but that is more manageable.

86

i disagree with this, chaos landed a few but they were set up by his ground game, and he had to get in very close. and they landed because the honda was trying to use his neutral jumps to stuff chaos’s ground game and paid for the late air to air by eating quick tatsu’s. in my mind the tatsu’s were purely to mix him up and get in his head.

87

Tatsus were done cause Honda is scary! I hate him, why is he so cheap! :shake:

-But usually when I play Skye I have to resort guerilla warfare tactics unless I can somehow get in on honda safely. And we had to play like 10 games, so I had to switch it up/get a little random at times to keep it fresh. And each round takes so long, and we always play in the Finals somewhere so its extra long cause it usually always goes to final set :crybaby:

88

it’s that damn [media=youtube]fQLtNNAlqi4"[/media]

89

Guys, you guys are the Ken pro’s, Scroll a bit up and help up plox =D The balrog one, and his sagat elbow, and others =D

And thanks Deconwinter. I guess he doesn’t really got any weaknesses. It does annoy me how easy his combo seems, and that’s basically all they do : Its so easy, and his ultra, wow it lands even if im fullscreen away.

Thanks for the post, I guess I just gotta mix it up more. I can’t really kara throw wiht my controller. Although I set my throw command, to A (xbox controller) so now I only press 2 buttons <- to do it. Instead of 3, so its a bit easier. I dont use standing light kick anyywa

90

lol @ “purple gi master” I might be able to go to Ohio now!!! Whooo! Let me know when u get ur tix.

I also get CW happy, lol. EVO was EPIC!!!

I also repped a few of u in here b/c we use Ken, lol. Ken army unite!

91

Which is why air tatsu works with Honda. It limits his neutral jumps and in some cases his forward jump ins (where SRK is not an option).

You should really try it before shooting it down. Yes it is not 100% awesome but what move is?
Also cross up tatsu works well because it can screw up their headbutt reversals.

For Rog-

In long range a mix up of FB and FADC will keep him honest. He has to use TAP or headbutt to get through FB so pay attention when and where you throw it.
FADC has a high pay off but can be countered easily if you get predictable (with super or ultra). But FADC is something Rog has to watch out for if he gets to predictable, especially at medium range where they like to do a lot of his dashing punches.

So if you use FADC tactics you should see the overhead (throw him) and dashing low upper cut (defend) a bit more. Both are armor breaking.

Rog HAS NO cross up. If he does a cross up jump it usually to setup a throw.

His cross up defense includes FADC, one of the dash punch (it will not hit you but will put him in safe position) or headbutt. The headbutt will likely just put him in safe position. Unless you messed up your timing it should not hit you.

To punish the headbutt it depends on the situation. If it is a total whiff, you may be able to do a c.mk to tatsu if he lands too far lk or lp combo. If you block it you can pretty much hit him with c.fp combo (or c.mk if you want to be a little safer).

You can’t jump in to Rog as he has a full arsenal of AA and he can easily connect to an Ultra.

Some of his none EX dash punches can be stuffed with either c.mk or c.mp.

The running uppercut can whiff on crouching opponents. Use one of this includes when opponents jump back a lot or pinned in the corner but you will not see this punch as much as the straight dash, TAP and running low punch.

Watch out for forward dash throws and his tick throws. The speed of his dash and jab allows his to setup a lot of free throws.

Rogs favorite pokes are crouching jab (fastest in the game) and his sweep (great range, knockdown, speed and recovery).

c.mk can make his headbutt whiff completely.

92

-My plan on rog is too just abuse him on his wake up with jump in kara throw and low forward shoryu.

-Kara throw beats out any ex rush attempt to escape but loses to headbutt. Low forward shoryu however beats all his other escape options but loses to back dash, block and maybe ultra?

-Eventually he’ll start just blocking thats when you just hit him with regular cross ups and other Ken ShaNayNays. Use tatsu alot on him whenever you get that chance also, other then that just runaway and use S.strong and low forward alot with the occasional step kick. And tech those grabs real good.

I’ll get in more depth later

93

For Balrog you should also know his distances. Watch out to not throw fireballs from too close because of TAP and headbutt has pretty decent range (especially because Ken’s hitbox moves forward when he throws a FB). You should also watch out around max cr.mk range because you’ll be out of jab range but within his sweep range. So don’t get poke happy. Keep on your toes when crouch blocking because his overhead punch combos into ultra. Most importantly, don’t get demoralized by him getting his combo into ultra! SF is about mind games too and his ultra doesn’t do that great damage to your life bar so don’t let it affect you if he connects it.

For Sagat’s jumping elbow I’m guessing you mean the ones that spam it? I think MP SRK will beat it and even if it trades you can follow up with another SRK (MP or HP depends on distance). I was watching a replay on PSN of a Ken that focus’d it and backdashed. Sometimes he wouldn’t backdash. Seemed like it worked pretty well because backdash made tiger uppercuts miss (doesn’t cover a lot of horizontal ground distance) but I’m not sure if a follow up tiger knee would be fast enough to hit you during your backdash. I would say it’s at least a good thing for mixing it up.

Most of the time I just block it and try to catch them when they follow up with pokes. Or I get pissed off and EX SRK them out of the air.

Cammy can be jabbed out of her EX crotch grab, but why would you want to???

94

One thing Ive been doin lately one some Rogs is to bait his TAP with m or f.FB & lp. FB if hes at the proper distance, u have to be careful b/c if they mistime their TAP, the lp. FB will hit them as they’re coming out their turn. Once I see him do the TAP I either ULTRA or shoryu his ass, lol.

And thanks to Chaos for this tidbit a good while ago and u guys may have already known this is that you can hit Rog right before the last hit of his ULTRA

95

Good stuff, thanks. I’m trying to think of some specific stuff but truthfully I probably wasn’t playing that great, so there’s my disclaimer :stuck_out_tongue:

My step kick got punished a LOT the first round, second round I tried far h.kick like you suggested and that landed a few times. Oddly, I was doing my best to SRK her Spiral Arrow on reaction, which typically I can do just fine, but it went through everytime anyway. I’m not the sort to blame a loss on lag but I have to say that was probably a factor. I typically go for med. SRK, should I switch it up for a low SRK?

Let’s try this: What’s NOT safe on Cammy? Step-kick seems punishable on reaction, I did manage to tag her in the corner with c.Medium kick xx Tatsu, so that’s fun some of the time.

With that hooligan combo always threatening, are FBs not safe at fullscreen, or any closer? Looking back my FBs really didn’t land at all, so I stopped throwing 'em out. Hooligan combo busted me up like three times so I just stopped. Should FBs be used sparingly, if at all, in a Cammy match?

And if this seems like a bunch of stuff which should be obvious, go easy on me, I never play against many real good Cammy’s :lol:

96

i posted because i have tried it, and have dealt with it on honda. and i’m giving you an opinion on the matter. keep it for a mix-up option to confuse them but don’t try and use it consistently.

97

Hmm… Balrog… My championship mode nemesis…

-For mind games, I like to do pointless, random focus xx back dashes. This gets the Rog into using his slower dash punches (I don’t know the names, the dash blow and overhead thingy…). These are a little easier for me to deal with than his safer straight, upper, and low straight (though I think that one is technically not safe?). You want to make him afraid of abusing dash straights against you, since that’s a free crumple when you catch em. :smiley:

-If you see him glow, grab him (unless you know he’s headbutting). You can grab all of his EX rush punches.

-Do c.mks with this motion (f, d+mk). That makes it easier to buffer a shoryu in case he tries to rush through. :stuck_out_tongue:

-Don’t jump in on him too much until you get a knock down. That’s when you want to go crazy on him. His headbutt sucks against cross ups. Also, I’m pretty sure it whiffs against c.mk (though that may be space dependent).

I think everyone else took care of the big stuff.

For Cammy, random focus xx back dashing is ok when she doesn’t have meter. When she does, her EX Hooligan can catch you too fast (a few times I got lucky and it’s auto aim was off, but it’s not reliable). When she doesn’t have meter, it makes her afraid to use the Spiral Arrow, since it is a free crumple stun combo. If she tries to Spinning Knuckle it, let the focus attack go. It will hit her before the backhand comes out. :stuck_out_tongue: It took me a few matches to get used to letting go rather than backdashing away, but it does work.

Her Cannon Spike will usually trade with your Fierce Shoryu at best (which is unfavorable for you). If you think it’s going to be an upper vs. upper showdown, go with mp shoryu (same as against Sagat or Ryu).

I play against a pretty decent Cammy. I’ll have to stop being lazy and record some matches so you can see our silliness. :stuck_out_tongue:

Was there any other match up help? I know Honda was there, but I haven’t played any epic Hondas. I usually just keep him away from me. He likes to sit his fat bum on people’s faces. That’s pretty rude.

98

Thanks brah, that’s good stuff too. I have to keep in mind about releasing FA while she’s in hooligan combo. I had actually thought about that but deemd it “too risky” :looney:

I had some great matches tonight versus a Cammy, and another player on PSN by the name of inb4weeaboos. He’s got some great timing, it was a lot of fun and I learned a ton of stuff, but after playing him and mostly losing, I’m starting to think my Ken is not quite where I want him to be, y’know? :shy:

99

Thanks Crazed for the input on that elbow. Even if it trades it even allows for a follow-up ultra (juggle) which actually ended a championship fight for me.

And well Cammy throws her crotch at anyone even Old Man Gen and that makes her a skank. Let’s be honest, Eliza would smell skank crotch the moment he strolled through the door. And they live in America so she’d take HALF of his assets, the house, alimony and then get child support!! That kind of stress could cause him to go bald, become a drunk and start working with, Dan. As a result, in SF5 Blanka would be throwing Electric Balls. Damn that!

100

Ok so I really don’t have it in me to write up anymore complete match up strats and what not so…

Ask a question about what you are having trouble with vs X character and I’ll try and help out as best as I can. :clapdos:

Tips & Tricks
-Jump in Fierce
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-Hittting The Ultra
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