You’re right, that makes more sense.
Didn’t even think about this, off the top of my head I’m sure he would lose some stuff on Gen. I think it would be a fair trade though, no pause in between hits coupled with reduced pushback on second hit means he can combo into cr.hp/cr.mp much more consistently now. Not to mention it would be an overhead, making it actually useful against crouching characters.
I play enough of them online and besides maybe Dhalsim it’s Hugo’s worst match-up. Charged fireball is barely a risk while Hugo doesn’t need metre, charged fireballs force Hugo to either block or jump where Hugo has 8 frames of jump start-up having the most difficult time of any character to neutral jump or Hugo takes chip. Gouken doesn’t need the extra reward in other match-ups because charging fireballs doesn’t seriously effect any match-up he has trouble with, its a change for no reason that will only hurt specific bad match-ups.
It won’t effect Gouken vs. Cammy/Akuma/Yun/etc. because in his bad match-ups he doesn’t have time to charge it unless its for a meatie fireball. It doesn’t make Gouken any better because he’s not going to use it in most of his match-ups at all and it won’t make his life any easier.
First, I’m pretty sure Hugo can’t punish Scissor Kick due to the push-back even at -1 but I don’t play many Bisons. Second, I’m not demanding everyone keep Hugo specifically in mind but that the grappler meta-match would be hurt by most of the changes I’ve seen to characters as most changes have been for characters like Ryu, Akuma, Oni, and others. Posts are most concerned with “I don’t like getting punished/not getting more damage” and not “this is a significant deficiency in my character that is unfair”.
The goal is for everybody to be buffed, not just characters that will fuck over your main. Balancing is a Zero-sum game, characters that are buffed will have both their bad AND good matchups get better, there’s almost no way around it. Don’t be that guy who doesn’t want other characters to be buffed just because your character will get worse in the process. That thought process is exactly why we have the Ultra update we got, because everyone whined during the location tests when characters were actually getting good.
A walkspeed buff is really bad? Seriously?Especially when we have to deal with DWU now? Nearly everyone requested a walkspeed buff, just saying it and every buff to the ground game is needed now.
The idea behind these buffs isn´t to shit harder on the good matchups, it is rather to fill some holes in the game plans of these characters.
Let´s say character x has good combo damage with light normals compared to the rest of the cast, but not from medium/hard, then you could give this character new links(mp to mp) or make these normals special cancelable or whatever. In many cases you would give them something, everyone else can do in this game, so whats the deal with it?
Capcom was really selective in the last update. Hawk and Hakan can´t even regularly combo in their EX Red Focus Attacks, but they gave 2 cripples named Akuma and Viper more or easier ways to do this. Great huh?
Not all buff ideas are good, I agree with that
Also nobody really knew, when we gave our ideas at Capcom Unity that we will get new game mechanics. You have to buff the characters in a different way with these new mechanics.
Balance isn’t zero sum only a tier list is. There isn’t a total amount of damage all characters have to share and buffing someone else requires removing damage from another. And the focus of any patch should be to create an improved state of assymetrical balance, not to buff everyone in some way.
Certain changes are going to effect certain match-ups more than others. Adding more block stun to any fireball will effect Makoto more that it will effect Dudley.
People may have whined that characters were too strong but lets not forget that there were other changes made simply because players just wanted something new e.g. Ryu’s j.mpxxTatsu which changed nothing about his match-ups and didn’t really improve his damage potential all that much. They added changes to characters that really didn’t need then so it would be something that was worth buying for everyone and the nerfs to weak characters were most likely just misguided and assumed that it wouldn’t effect too much of their customer base. If they do update again it will most likely be free like 2012 and therefore be more limited changes made to fix characters that need rather than giving everyone something new few months after the last major release.
I would like them to reevaluate RFC combos and look at all of the new characters since they seem to have the most errors and weird stuff as well as improving balance for low tier characters. There are plenty of changes that still need time to explore without adding more changes to the pile for figuring out how better or worse everyone is. There was a reason why 2012 and Ultra were two years apart despite everyone hating Cammy, Akuma, Seth, and Fei Long.
I’m missing exactly how walk speed effects Gouken’s oki with DWU unless he’d get ground oki off of forward throw and that’s the only hard knockdown he has besides sweep and I doubt he’d need it for that since he has both Demon Flip for mix ups and back throw for better damage opportunities off a grab.
Characters in a most likely free update only need to be changed if they need those changes. A character that doesn’t have strong or forward links would probably have damage and combos from other options like special cancels, FADC’s, and juggles if they has comparable damage potential to someone who could. They should only really need that kind of change if it gives them a more fair chance at getting decent damage if their combos from lights are difficult to do or too weak, like how Bison got changes to st.mp to actually get him some combo damage.
I agree that Capcom should have either held off on the community contribution until we knew about Red Focus or released that info sooner and I’d like them to do some significant evaluations of it in the next hypothetical patch. I don’t even want nerfs to the current “top tiers” because all of these changes are fresh and new tech like Akuma’s improved hitstun from cl.mk on crouch it going to be discovered for a while after release and more new changes could disrupt what balance we have now further.
Universal changes
. Remove input leniency
. Reduce reversal window to be like 3s
. Remove the freeze effect that disallows you to move backwards when someone does a focus attack
. Remove backdash invincibility and unblockable level 3 focus attacks (since removing the former would make PvP 3 focus too strong)
Things that stay
. Autoblock, since Seth/dhalsim ect can easily just create unblockable situations. The blockstring/frame traps are way more prolonged and intense in this game than it was in 3s. If 3s had the same type of pressure game as sf4 then it would be next to impossible to defend
“new tech”? Every “force standing” move causes 1F more hitstun than a normal reeling animation. Been known for a long time. Should have been obvious from the moment that it was announced. >_>
we cant conquer the planet with buffed ex tatsu just yet so he needs embellishments to his existing bag of tricks…
just to make it more feared , to reward us for leaving our selves open having no real reason to have to charge a hado. were at more risk for doing it… as soon as we start charging it opponents go into proximity block which keeps em in my face essentially forcing them to take the open shots , when they might keep walking backwards were it not because of this…if anything remove proximity block from this SPECIFIC equation i dont mind it at all…it hinders the other player in this scenario too
i mean you figure a one handed hado throwin dude would be able to lower or raise his hand…since we dont get that or cant cancel out of them on startup ( always wanted it to do cooler shit sorry bro) cant throw em in the air…i just want something new and cool to play with…you can have the damage back I want more fucntionality and applications i guess is all
Allowing zoning tools and characters to cancel their specials outright is insanely dumb and pretty much everyone else would be limited to only being able to cancel certain moves, mostly only on hit/block, and for two metres. Removing a zoning character’s mechanic of having to commit to zoning tools would be broken as all hell and the match-up would be impossible for people who can’t counter zone outright. The only character who can, Cody, has almost double the start up on his regular Bad Stone than real projectile characters and his Fake Bad Stone has 33% more than his regular version. It would be a massive buff to anyone if they were allowed to cancel their fireballs without seriously nerfing them.
Also, if charging Gouken’s Gohadou and the proximity block it causes is getting you punished, you’re using it wrong and you don’t deserve more damage. The move already does more damage than regular Gohadouken and it breaks armour as a bonus; Gouken doesn’t need buffs to his fireball game.
Cody can’t cancel his badstone. He has to throw it if he picks it up just like Gouken/Oni/Sakura. Fake badstone is a totally different move done with D+HP+HK you choose one or the other right from the start. It’s 32F for fake, 44-48F minimum for anything else. It’s still a commitment. Unless I’m totally misunderstanding what you mean by committing to a fireball and canceling fireballs.
Most characters can “feint” a fireball with QCF (pause) Jab or just crouch - stand - jab in a similar manner to a fake badstone. It’s not as convincing but it’s safer and it does cause people to hesitate.
New poster, long time lurker.
M. Bison
His U1 can now hit the opponent when he’s right above him or slightly behind (less vulnerable to close jump ins)
Light SK 0 on block, like before.
That’s it. I’m fine with low damage and the lack of universal AA.
What do you guys think about these changes for Seth? I know a lot of people hated fighting Seth because he “was” (2012 and before) able to ignore large parts of positioning and zoning in match ups by forcing every opponent to deal with an up close oki games that was far scarier than any grappler or even what Dudley has now. This lead to an annoying situation where defending opponents never felt like they had the right answer without just betting on a hard read on wake up themselves.
So I had an idea to propose 2 different rebalances, one would be a reworking of his old style that would be less powerful than it was but not useless as it is now. The other would be to make him more of a proper SF character with no serious changes to his up close or far game as it is now, but adding a significant change to his mid range game, making the mid range viable for Seth in the same way far and up close ranges are. Essentially this Seth would be a very well rounded character that wouldn’t be great at anything like he was in 2012 for offense but would still be decent at all ranges without any glaring weaknesses like his current mid range to help justify is 800 hit points.
Less Derpy Offensive Vortex Seth:
Generally well rounded Seth:
Which one do you guys think you might prefer and why? Do you feel any of these buffs will put Seth back into the place of feeling “unfair” or “brainless”?
Personally I’d be happy with either.
I think full-on reverting Gen to either 2012 or Ultra Arcade would work out fine, but I doubt Capcom would go for that. Too much like admitting a mistake.
So I guess if I were tweaking stuff for this version I’d like to see:
Crane:
c.mk: special cancelable (gives Gen a legit albeit slow low threat in Crane with c.mk xx roll)
s.hk: focus cancelable (s.hk xx ExRFA on grounded opponents, for those times you have meter but not the charge to cancel into roll)
s.lk: given some reason what-so-ever to want to ever press this (Crane s.lk has to be one of the least useful normals in the game, 8 frame start up on a 40 damage light that leads to nothing and is negative on both block and hit)
Mantis:
Sweep: +10 damage, hit-box extended to match graphic
c.mp and super really should get their damage nerfs reverted, but again I don’t see that happening
When you consider crMK has crazy hitstun for Gen (25F hitstun 23F blockstun) yeah that’s a pretty big threat. crMK - EX RF would combo btw wouldn’t need sHK, crMK - Rolls would always combo even max range. 8F isn’t even THAT slow in the grand scheme given the utility (80 damage, crazy hitstun/blockstun, specifically designed to low profile fireballs even on first frame.). I mean it aint’ QUICK by any means. Though if you are referring to it’s TOTAL frame count which yeah is pretty slow at 31F. 
Be a pretty cool buff.
FYI sLK WOULD be good on another character. The issue is that the hitbox and reach are covered better by other moves in Gen’s repertoire so there is no use for it. It’s not bad in and of itself. It’d be a solid, if underwhelming, poke on a character who didn’t have things like Mantis sMK/sMP/sHK and crane sMK which all overshadow it. It’s useless on Gen. I dunno if it’s a bad move in terms of overall bad where it’d be bad on ANYONE (like Honda’s overhead would still be bad on pretty much any character) but I suppose that is just nitpicking about your statement.
Mantis sweep hitbox extended to match graphic would be a pretty crazy big buff given how far it already reaches it’d be be basically unpunishable, it’d never almost never trade, and be probably the farthest reaching sweep under 10F startup. I just want to make sure you considered the total ramifications of the buff beyond simply a more aesthetically pleasing aspect.
I’d rate Mantis sweep as already one of the best sweeps in the game. Up there with Gouken/Ryu/Chun/Akuma.
I’m not 100% against it but I want to make sure you really are looking at it objectively and thought about how it would play out in other MUs.
Personally, I still wish there was a target combo that switched your stance mid combo. Like Mantis sMK xx Crane crMP
Glad you like the idea of the Crane c.mk buff. It’s one I could see both having an impact on Gen’s game and actually getting approved by Capcom.
Crane s.hk needs something going for it. I’m not sure what that something is. On its own it’s one of the more interesting normals in the game, but any time it could be useful Gen also has another clearly better option.
I’m not entirely convinced any character would be thrilled to have Gen’s Crane s.lk. Maybe if they don’t already have a hitbox that fills that space? Is there anybody who would want to give up their existing s.lk to have it? (That’s mostly rhetorical and entirely academic, don’t feel like you need to answer.)
Sweep buff would be a big deal, but it would have been a bigger deal in earlier versions, so maybe it’s time. For visual logic reasons, I’m a proponent of hitboxes matching graphics, and didn’t really mind the mantis focus nerf on those grounds.
I don’t get the feeling that a stance switch target combo matches Capcom’s design philosophy for the character. I think they want Crane and Mantis to feel like two different characters, and flowing between them to be an aspect of mastering the character rather something cooked-in to his basic move set. That said, Mantis sMK xx Crane crMP would be pretty scary, giving Gen more meterless damage off a quality poke (assuming he has back-charge to carry over).
I just had an idea for Sim. In one of my earlier posts I wanted the startup frames lowered on Lp and Mp flame. Lp.flame being lowered to 14f startup so that it can combo from CH light attacks and Mp.flame being lowered to 15f startup so that it’ll combo from medium attacks.
With those changes in place, Lp.flame should changed to no longer cause a knockdown, but to keep the opponent standing with little pushback. This way Sim can better combo into red focus. His forward dash should also be changed from 31f to somewhere around 25-27. On hit it should be plus 1or 2 frames.
New combos: yoga fire/iat/b.hpb.mk xx lp.flame xx red focus/forward dash/db.mpb.mk xx mp.flame.
yoga fire/iat/b.hp*b.mk xx lp.flame xx red focus/forward dash/ultra 1/2.
Sagat needs something else. Its probably been mentioned before, but I think he should be able to combo out of his overhead the same way Dudley is able to. Im not too familiar with his frames and I’m much too lazy to look at the wiki. I’m thinking less pushback on hit and lowering the recovery, if needed, to be able to combo into cr.lpxx or cr.mpxx.q
I am well aware of that and chose to mention Cody because he’s the only character I can think of who has similar mechanics to what takinflight was mentioning, him or Juri but I felt she was less applicable since Bad Stone operates more closely to Gouken’s Gohadouken than Fujihan.
I’m also sure QFC delayed jab doesn’t have its own fireball animation like Fake Bad Stone which is the whole reason behind him having the move and what a fireball feint or cancel on Gouken was what was asked for in…
takingflight is most likely speaking from his online experiences where button feints aren’t as strong as local play.
get over it , takinflight just wants more use of fireballs…speaking of ballsssssssssss
The one thing I would like is some kind of update. It has been three months since release and all they have done is taken our money for an incomplete product.