Official USF4 Rebalance Thread

You buff his anti airs vs dive kicks you buff his anti airs vs non-dive kicks. That simply how it works. End of story. There isn’t a middle ground there. An AA that works vs Dive kicks will be better vs non-divekicks.
End Result: Much harder to ever jump in on Sim without the ability to alter jump arc. Hurts everyone, especially slow characters who jump in from specific ranges most often. This one is probably the most OK to adjust though with the least wide spread results.

Focus attacks aren’t the issue, focus attack dashing is the issue. The issue is simply that a handful of characters have extremely good dashes. Focus dashing as say: Ryu doesn’t really do that much against sim, focus dashing is only an issue when the dash is very fast. For a character with an 18F dash with average distance, focus absorbing any limb and dash canceling any limb other than sHP/sHK/crMP/crHP will leave you negative vs Dhalsim. Most mids that are focus dashed are punishable by Dhalsim on focus dash. The thing is when a character has a fast dash they are less negative or not negative. And a character with a far dash can still end up gaining ground even if Dhalsim throws out a 2nd poke or a fireball right after your focus dash. They gained more than the pushback from that 2nd poke.
Net result: Completely removes a situational mediocre tool from characters sim does ok against in exchange for buffing his tools vs those he falters. Also removes focus backdash as an option to build meter for slow characters who can’t get in anyway. It does fix the problem sim has, but it’s in exchange for destroying an entire option for characters who can’t abuse it.

Anti Fireball stuff:
Zangief Lariat existed since the start of streetfighter. Bison could scissor over some fireballs. Balrog had TAP. A ton of characters supers demolished fireballs entirely in ST. Complaining about anti fireball moves and thinking they are the heart of the problem is a myopic view (IMO) that comes from not recognizing the issue has to do almost entirely with something else: lower risk on jump ins and lower damage on fireballs. Yes, anti fireball moves ADD to the problem but saying “we should remove moves that avoid fireballs” shows a choice to ignore the history of the genre.

Removing anti fireball moves: completely demolishes almost so many matchups it’s not even funny and I have to ask you: did you think about how much this hurts Sim’s good matchups? How does Zangief ever beat Dhalsim without Lariat? What even is the point of Cody’s Zonk and EX Ruffian if it loses to fireballs? How does THawk beat Sim? How does Honda ever get in on Sim period?

Then there is the general stuff for all matchups not just involving Dhalsim How do you escape meaty fireballs EVER, even an SRK no longer works. What is the point of a move like Dudley’s ducking now, where the only reason for it existing is that it’s projectile invincible? Is it relegated to simply being a shitty version of Ibuki’s Kasumi Gake without the speedy movement ability to cross over opponents?

Adjusting SOME anti fireball moves, sure. Removing them? Fuck no. Not unless some MAJOR system changes are put in place and new moves given to those characters who would basically have no options to get in on Dhalsim now unless Dhalsim falls asleep.

Your ideas ALL would result in making several of the matchups Sim wins already be much harder. That is the nature of the character and the nature of balance period. The balance is HOW MUCH is it ok to make some of his bad matchups better in exchange for making his good matchups better. There is balance that can be achieved, and generally its through adjusting the reward on his tools rather than the efficiency. Some things can be (and should be changed) but you need to admit the FACT that when you buff a character to be better at something: he is going to be better at that thing. You buff his anti airs, he is going to be better at anti airing. You buff his pokes, he’ll be better at poking. There isn’t a “this anti air only hits divekicks” flag for moves or “this move is only 2hits vs Makoto” flag.

I’m all for all sorts of Dhalsim buffs, hell most of the ones Jones posted I agreed with. I also have a few of my own ideas. However you need to look at the facts, ANY time you buff a character to be better at something you affect all matchups where that something is used. So, how many matchups does Dhalsim have that involve: Focus, Opponents being in the air at some point, and throwing fireballs? If those things come up in any matchups, your suggestions effects them.

[/quote]

Only things I disagree with are here.

Crouch taunt sounds fine, only on hit though. Leave it stupid negative on block (it IS a taunt!) [personally: I’d prefer my old concept of a zero damage taunt that does 100stun, breaks armor, and on counterhit causes a crumple (and does 200stun on CH). :stuck_out_tongue: Note, the crumple would be the equivalent of a level 2 focus, in this version he isn’t able to dash / jump / special cancel so he always ends up only being able to combo off the couple during the frames the opponent is already airborne. Limits the tool a bit more but still can lead directly to ultra.
Jump taunt: No, at bare minimum it should have the landing frames same as after an air attack. That turns it into a move that can safe jump 0-3F attacks if it’s the same as an empty jump. Personally, I think 6-8F would be best, it’s a super jump when used properly. It should however cause a knockdown on air hit, not an air reset.

Legendary Taunt: Interesting concept. I like the special/dash/jump cancel stuff. However the changing scaling seems odd and convoluted.
My personal added touch: make it a legit painful taunt! Make it 100% invincible right up until the last frame Dan is allowed to cancel the taunt (231F) Make it into the most obnoxious timer scam EVER. You wasted a full super, now they gotta sit through at LEAST 4full seconds of Dan Time (add in an ultra cancel startup animation? Dan could timer scam a full like 5-7seconds where he can’t be touched. Glorious douchebaggery…)

Plus legendary taunt like that would be so f’n annoying for Juri or Rose. “You did your FSE/Orbs? Let me just eat off 4seconds of it for you. Then cancel to my awesome backdash at the last moment” any time someone is close to you they risk eating a DP they gotta stay blocking whole time or run away. It’s like a really dumb mixup!

You forgot:

:stuck_out_tongue:
Also, why the stinger nerf? I feel that part of his moveset should stay, it’s kind of what makes him good right now. I also feel that the hitstun on EX Air Raid should stay, or at worst only 2F lost. Blockstun I agree with though.

Akuma

Make c.mk xx hadouken combo more reliably

When U1 is used as part of W-Ultra, reduce the amount of meter that the opponent gains.

Leave the “fix” for EX Tatsu in the game this time

I like the idea that one dude in the general thread had of making sure all characters some form of crouch tech fuckery.

Low/throw invincible frame trap shit that combos to something else.

Remember when sf3 had that and it worked great then they put focus in sf4 which works super shittily?

I don’t really follow your point at all with anti airs. Sim can generally already keep the cast out with normals of he’s on point. Admittedly it would make it easier for people with bad reactions to AA consistently, but it doesn’t actually affect a lot a high level, other than dive kickers not just rolling dice till they get in.

Point taken on focus I guess. On the other hand, what else can you do to keep mak from getting in on sim for free?

As for fireballs, I’m not sure if you just skimmed or what. I don’t have a problem with some moves bypassing some projectiles for reasons you already got into. On the other hand, you have retarded shit like Abel, who already rapes sim, getting to say “And now you don’t get to throw fireballs anymore” mid match as a reward for sim winning. How would you address that? Maybe this is just an ideological issue I have with SF4’s general design, but seriously. Punishing a character so brutally for winning is retarded.

I might just be one of those things where we should blame Capcom for ever thinking its a good idea for putting sim, Abel, and Hugo all in the same game together. When you have such a huge cast, lopsided shit is going to appear. But it’s obvious that sim really isn’t at all competitive. Something ought to be done.

Elena cr.lp changed from +5 to +6 on hit (cr.mp now a 2f link, can also link cr.mk) or really any variation that makes her BNB no longer a 1f link. People would probably be mad if they made her cr.lp 3f and cr.mp 4f

Expand the 2nd hit of MK spin scythe hitbox so if 1st hit hits, 2nd will always connect as well

Somehow fix her U1 so it doesn’t trade with every move in the game…

DeeJay

Far st.lp- good
Cl.lp- good
Cr.lp- good (im not sure if it has more pushback than the AE version. If so, revert the nerf)
Far st.mp- it needs to hit crouchers.
Cl.mp- make it +5 on hit. It’s currently +2
Cr.mp- less pushback on hit. DJ needs better CH setups
Far st.hp- needs a better hurt/hitbox and/or always launch on hit
Cl.hp- It suppose to force stand but it whiffs vs crouchers
Cr.hp- needs a larger cancel window
Far st.lk- good
Cl.lk- good
Cr.lk- revert the pushback nerf. It trades too much. IDK why
Far st.mk- make the two hit version activate from a further range.
Cl.mk- on CH, it has a tendency to have extra pushback. The opponent can be pushed so far that DJ can’t follow up with a link.
Cr.mk- increase the hitstun on block from -4 to -2.
Far st.hk- the frame data is terrible and unacceptable. It starts up in 11f, 23 recovery, -5 on hit, -9 on block. It needs to start up at 7-8 frames. Some situations it is punished on hit. It needs a two hit version
Cl.Hk- the second kick hitbox should be expanded so it doesn’t whiff on hit or block. It needs more advatage on hit so that cl.st.hk xx rfa will combo. The only normal that is red focus cancellable is close st.hp but it doesn’t hit crouchers.
Cr.hk- it should have a 12f start up and/or fadcable. When used as an AA, it should juggle more.
Knee shot- revert the damage nerf. Add 2f of block stun.

DeeJay Air to Airs are really good

Air Slasher- revert the hit and block stun nerf.

Lk sobat- revert the low invincibility and air born nerf. It should be unthrowable

Mk/HK sobat- the specials should be more safe. On hit or block, the 2nd kick shouldn’t whiff. The hk version 1st kick should have less push back so that red focus combos don’t whiff. The mk version should cause a soft knockdown.

Hk upkick-should start up at 3-4f and hit crouchers.

Ex upkick- more invincibility

MGU- more traction and larger hitbox. It’s common for some of the punches to whiff, especially the last punch. The last punch should have more pushback.

Ex MGU- it launches the opponent too far away causing dash u2 to whiff. This wasn’t a problem in AE. The move needs more invincibility, pushback nerf reverted and throwable on startup. The hitbox should be expanded so that the punches no longer whiff.

DJ needs an overhead.

Super- full fireball invincibility. All versions should startup at 6 frames

U1- it should have a faster startup, a range buff, brake focus and more traction. The opponent shouldn’t never fall out. The ultra needs a semi-animation version for juggles.

U2- change the input to back, foward, back, foward motion. Remove the animation where DJ is catching the maracas.

Focus attack needs more range.

DJ’s back dash and throw range is shit.

I know that I forgot something

Nobody provided evidence in 3 months and the general consensus was: no pushback change occurred to Deejay’s lights it had to do with the changes to OTHER moves causing the whiffs. Specifically EX MGU becomes active sooner so the reeling animations are different when it would hit now causing problems.

In regards to the crLK trading, it’s not a new issue. I explained this before but I dunno if you saw it. Deejay’s hurtbox sucks on crLK. Not only does it suck, but it sticks out before and after the move’s active frames. It doesn’t turn into the normal recovery portion hurtboxes (where it’s a bunch of hurtboxes that just follow the animation) until the 3rd frame of recovery.

You can view the AE2012 hit/hurtbox data here

The Oil Dive charging can be used to cover DWU as well, if you can react to the technical message. It is a bit more useful in USF4 imo.

Akuma
Far St.HP damage increase to 100 and hitbox increase downward.
Raging Demon damage increase to 370
W ultra to 70%
Ultra 1 when using W ultra opponent gains less meter
Ultra 2 startup reduce by 3 frames. (For Punishing Purposes in certain situations)
1st hit M GoShoryuken launches the opponent.

Abel
Far.St.MP now is Ex special cancelable also hitbox increase downward and damage decrease to 65 from 80.
Ex COD damage increase to 50 from 40
Heartless damage increase to 350
Far lk on counter hit is now +7

Bison
St.Mp Hitbox increase to hit small characters now St.Lp
Cr.Mp, St.Mp is more consistent hitting characters like chun.
St.MP damage increase 75 from 70
Ex D. Reverse Opponent float higher on hit and now can combo from it also damage decrease 50*50

Guy
Bushin chain 4 hit launches higher and now jump cancelable on hit
Ex Bushin Throw juggle point increase by 1
M hazanto doesn’t knockdown, +1 on hit and red focus comboable
damage reduce to 110.
St.Lk remove as an anti air and cr.mp brought back almost to its AE 2012 Status as an anti air.
Far st.Hp less pushback on hit
Cr.Mk hitbox improve likely to hit both hits much further out and damage increase 40*50

Sagat
Fix: Ex tiger knee builds meter
Fix : Ultra 1 misses mid screen

Tiger cannon damage increase to 285
High Tiger shot recovery reduce by 2 frames.
Cl.St.lk and Cl.St.Hk Further reconigtion possible to link
2 Cr.Lk into them.
H Tiger knee after fadc is now +5
Damage change to all tiger knees

  • L version damage change to 50 and 70
  • M version damage change to 70 and 70
  • H version damage change to 120 and 40

Guile
Fix: Upside down kick misses some character like gouken using cr.lk
Super damage 50 points more damage added to last hit and now can auto correct
Rolling Sobat +2 hitstun now +1 on hit
Health increase to 1000
Air grab juggle potential 1

Thawk
Cl.St.HP damage decrease 90 from 130 also Pushback is less on hit and block.
Cr.Hk 2nd hit damage increase 100 from 50
Ex condor spire damage increase to 130
Thrust peak improve some way

Fei Long

Normals
CR LK +1 On block
CL MP less pushback on counterhit
CL HK: Attack recognition range same as CL HP 5 frame Start Up
Far Stand LK Damage 40→30 Special Cancellable

All Rekkas less push back on hit so that 2nd rekka will always combo.

Ex Rekka
1st hit -1 On block
2nd Hit -4 On block, reduced pushback on block

Flame Kick
HK Flame Kick first hit does not Launch Damage10050 → 7070 Remove Invincibility, Moves more forward.

Tenshin
Revert tenshin speed buffs, not possible cancel tenshin from a normal like seth can’t cancel tandem engine.

EX Chicken Wing
Remove Physical Invincibility

Ultra 1 3rd Hit launches higher so it gets full hit on characters like Ibuki Poison
Damage change 1st and 3rd hit of ultra damage change 40→30 5th hit 110→80

Ultra 2
Able to cancel focus into ultra 2

http://i.minus.com/ibiihPdQze3TqC.gif

Seth; since nobody talks about/plays him anymore apparently (myself included), might as well throw some ideas around.

850 hp (I mean c’mon E.Ryu has 950 LOL) although he could probably stay 800 with some other buffs.
Maybe give him tanden cancel back.
6f cr.mk instead of 7f.
Cr.mp +2 on block instead of +1.
Up his walkspeed to like Hakan level.
4f cr.lk instead of 5f.
90 damage instead of 80 on far.hp.

LIke I said just throwing some stuff in the air, I don’t think he’s trash or anything, probably comfortably mid-tier now but just trying to come up with something.

The focus being able to cancel into ultra sounds broken but its something ive tried with modding it, there is not a way to make it cancel directly, you have to negative edge it otherwise focus attack will come out so you have to negative edge it and only really useful against slow multi hitting attacks like guiles sweep. Just something to make ultra a little more useful.

good ideas.

What’s ur thinking for the U2 startup reduction?

Is those scenarios when ultra 2 is a bit late to punish, Anti Air purposes, Cr.mk x teleport into ultra 2 slightly more easier, Helps with one reacted to something, etc other reasons.

Oni
F+MK hitbox increase downward
Forward walkspeed increase to 0.0445
F+Hk Startup reduce to 8 and active frame increase to 3
Far.St.MP now has forward movement and reduce hurtbox around his leg
Cr.Mk hitstun increase by 1
F+Lk on hit is now +2 and on counter hit is +6
Gorai hadouken startup adjust L version = 23, M Version = 24, H version = 25 and Ex Version = 23
L Slash on block -1 and slightly increase range movement.
L/M/H Air tastu hitbox increase

Ryu
Fix: Air Ex tastu too inconsistent to hit all hits in air combos, also better juggle potential afterwards.
Adjust Jump M Punch that the hitbox passes the hurtbox.
Ex shoryuken Damage change to 100*40.
Cr.Mk Hitbox very slightly increase and adjust hurtbox behind the hitbox.
Ultra 2 1st hit cinematic hitbox increase horizontal slightly
Non cinematic is now more consistent to hit all 5 hits and connects no matter juggle points
Add Joudan kick
-One of the joudan kick doesn’t knockdown for Ex red focus combos
-Ex version does wall bounce but it counts as 2 hits of damage scaling or cost 2 bars.
Far St.HP on counter hit pushback reduce.

this is far too reasonable

what i really want
all versions of oicho leave cornered opponents cornered
ex hhs hitbox/walk speed improved (make the hp hhs, ex hhs combos work universally!)
fix decapre’s, honda’s crouching hurtbox so hp hhs connects properly

for fun
df.hk -> 250 stun
sweep -> 10-12 frame start up
regular oichos -> 150 stun, ex oicho -> 200 stun
maybe reduce the pushback on certain normals (close mk) so they can be used for frame traps and give counterhit combos more consistently
forward dash from 19f -> 18f so forward dash after lvl1 focus is only -2
st.hk only -1 on hit so chun can’t super on hit