I really gotta know why you think with just minor buffs these chars could suddenly become secret top tier. Also why you think their potential gains, which as you say no one really explores, is higher than other chars no one explores like Gen/Guy/Oni. I feel Dan suffers from Sean syndrome in that everything is one frame[or many more in his case] too slow. His general confirm dmg is low as well so even compared to other frame trap chars he’s not that stellar. I glanced at your change log and the one that stuck out to me is the 0 on all dankyus. That actually seems pretty significant to me, I believe only…sakura? has an advancing move that’s 0 on block. He does have a usable shoryu which is nice, but it misses the magic number of 3 and while its DIFFICULT to safe jump it can be done. While I can easily admit he’s a functional character as they all are I can’t really think of anyone WORSE than him. Except…well Hakan I know less about. I’ll probably never fight a decent one even the way the China arcade scene looks, but I don’t really worry too much about one running me over next tourney…
Dan has good pressure. Great frame traps, fast safe comboable armor breaker with a hitbox that beats reversals, good throw range, good hit confirms, good damage, good crossups/fake crossups, good option selects. He has good close range defense with 4 frame dragon punch, good dp hitbox, dp fadc danku/jump hp knockdowns, good backdash. His only problem area is mid range. He’s not terrible there, what with ex danku and st/cr mk and a free jump mixup in jump normal or jump lk danku, but that’s where he loses. That could be fixed pretty easily just by giving him more advantage after ex dan kick hits and by buffing a normal and u1. Nothing major, just make him a little better at mid range and keep his good but not excellent offense and defense.
Gen and Guy are real close to being real good too.
Imo Oni needs significant help. Slow, crappy, punishable normals that don’t combo into damage at anything but right next door (and sometimes they do or don’t combo for no obvious reason). Crappy fireballs. Bad defense with no dp fadc on block. Mixups that haven’t worked since week 2. Air dash is bad. Not as fast as he seems. He’s pretty obviously an unfinished character.
Dictator lk. scissor kicks = 0 on block.
Yun: Ex lunge punch is = +1 on block
Chun Li MK flip kick (Hazan Shu) = 0 on block
Cammy Spin Knuckle (which are all extremely slow) are also +3 or +4 on block (depending on strength)
E.Ryu HK Axe kick = +1 on block
Elf Dash to Gordita Sobat = +1 on block
Claw ex rolling crystal flash = 0 on block
Fei EX Rekka’s = 0 on block for first
Fei HK Chicken Wing = 0 on block
Fei EX Chicken Wing = 0 on block
Come on man. SRK has the frame data on this very site. No reason not to at least research your statements a little.
Return gief to his super version and im happy
While I would discount a fair number of those due to speed and focusability and meter usage, SK and CW definitely count with SK being particularly relevant. My bad.
As you can probably guess, players aren’t using them in tournaments, just in casuals, because Dan and Hakan are basically free. That’s probably why you don’t see them. Good players playing them is what makes them good. (All the good players playing these guys as alts are better than all the Americans that I have ever seen that purport to actually main them.) I’ve played Hakan mains in tournament, but no one’s picking Dan there except to troll or be the “noble guy” who gets his kicks from playing the bottom tier. The WC doesn’t have a monopoly on these characters… lots of people like to play (and especially troll) with them occasionally, and good players can become pretty good with them easily enough, especially Dan since he goes way back. Many players picked up Dan in my area once he got his U2 and could combo it in Super. I based my assessment of Dan post-your-suggested-changes (as indicated) and the play I witness, and it was secondarily based on consideration of videos of what I consider to be good players, stripfighteriv and wildcat (for Hakan) and how solid their wins were achieved. (Don’t know if you want to consider them good players or not – I do.) My suggestions weren’t groundless.
But if you really do believe that there really are no good Dans and Hakans, then everything is just speculation and theoryfighter until someone with that hitherto undiscovered match up knowledge and dedication to the character enlightens us because Dan and Hakan have no champions, just acknowledged theoryfighters. While I still think Dan and Hakan are free and thus don’t buy into the they have “untapped potential” view - and you and I can just agree to disagree on this point - I stress that I brought that up to counter the imo ludicrous suggestions that eliminating the 7-3s is impossible from this game. If you want to think of them as non-joke characters, fine, but I don’t see much evidence for this; Capcom even seems to be purposefully leaving Dan in an underpowered state. But it doesn’t make a difference to my actual points. (The comments on Dan/Hakan were asides.) If they balance the game to remove 7-3s, it likely won’t involve much real consideration for Dan, and I’d be worried about Hakan.
Ok I’ma step outta line a bit and say this. Replace all the goods with greats [and all the greats with fantastisome] and you have Ken. All of this reeks of painfully mediocre and that’s fine. If the point you’re trying to get across is that Dan is a functional character - again it all sounds well and good. I can agree with that. But within the context of the game as a whole, he’s sorely outclassed, wouldn’t you agree?
Sidenote: I’m not sure what the free jump in mixup is. Lp Danku beats shoryus or somesuch? Also, theory fightering here, but how does he advance past fireball spam aside from the usual slow and steady. Jump Dankus?
Great frame traps and good hit confirms? All he can do is some lights into ex dan kick following a knee, which both uses meter and is fairly low damage.
Fast armor breaker with a hitbox that beats reversals? No. Ex dan kick is a fast armor breaker, but it’s hitbox isn’t that great, and it’s terrible on trades. Lk dan kick has a good hit box than can beat alot of DP type moves past the initial inviciblity, but it’s pretty slow. They aren’t the same move.
Good damage? It’s about average.
Good hitbox on his dp? Not at all, beyond the startup invincibility, it’s terrible. An early koryuken will pretty much always trade against jump-ins, it’s pretty shitty in that regard compared to most other DP’s I can think of; ryu, ken, cammy, sagat, seth, yang, yun, etc.
Neutral jump HP juggle a good knockdown? No, it’s techable, you get no mixup afterwards.
Good cross-up? Not really. The blockstun on j. mk is so terrible you can’t even get a safe anything afterwards outside of something super meaty. His normal comdo enders (dan kicks), also don’t leave you in a position for a crossup.
Pokes? Yeah, st. mk and ex dan kick are decent, but cr. mk is a joke. The hitbox is much shorter than the animation would lead you to believe, and canceling into gadouken is never a true blockstring.
Free jump in mixups with air knee? No. It has terrible recovery on whiff, and can easily be baited out and punished by anyone that knows what’s up.
I have to wonder if you’re playing the same game as the rest of us.
He just means using a jump knee to slow your jump to beat early AA/DPs. It’s a high risk/low reward gimmick that can be countered by backdashing with a free punish afterward, actually doing a late DP properly, or just blocking which will leave Dan at a frame disadvantage if the knee hits high.
He doesn’t have any specific tools to get around fireballs besides U1 at close range (air dan kicks have horrible recovery), but his walk/dash speed and jump are decent.
lol me too, dude. me too. i don’t really feel like blowing you up, but then you’d be all “see, i was right, he couldn’t respond,” and i’d be all “that’s like totally frustrating bro, grr,” and that wouldn’t be too great. on the other hand i’m already frustrated that i’ve had to play the defend-dan game for a year against a million people who for some reason insist on not having a collective hive mind so i can just say these things once and get the message to all of them. butttttttt, alright, frustration count #1 wins. and then i’ll probably leave this thread.
Safe practical hit confirms: close mp link, close hk link, close mp to cr mp xx, close mp to cr mk xx, cr mp cr mp xx, cr lk st lk link, cr lk cr lk cr lk st lp cr mk xx.
Frame traps: close mp for people who crouch tech quickly, close hk for people who crouch tech slowly. Both link to dragon punch or cr mp xx ex danku/dragon punch (dp is char dependent). Close mp link u1 on counterhit is 2-frame link; it counterhits a lot in frame traps. Cr mp xx hk danku on ch; nice because close mp, quick back step, cr mp beats mid-late techs, only hits if opponent has a normal out to counter hit, so hk danku only comes out if it’s gonna combo. Also think meaty cr mp, cr lk st lk is pretty neat. Also do cr lp, cr lk st lk.
As far as armor breakers go, lk danku is one of the faster in the game, esp buffered after normals. Lk danku or instant air lk danku beat or whiff through most reversals; which one to use is char dependent. Ex danku one of the fastest armor breakers in the game. No one presses focus on my Dan.
Basic practical post-hit confirm 2 meter: close hk, cr mp xx fb fadc close hp xx hp dp = about 375. Dan always has meter. No meter: close hk, cr mp xx hp dp is about 280.
Please don’t assume I’m doing poorly timed antiair dragon punches like an idiot. Beats Cammy’s dp on the regular, ask James.
Dp fadc neutral jump hp to lk danku = perfect timing to beat reversals against some chars.
Crossup jump mk to cr lk st lk is safe on block and hit confirm into dragon punch. Crossup jump mk to close mp or close hk (char dependent, shorter characters cr hk is better for frame traps) is a frame trap and hit confirm into dragon punch or cr mp xx dragon punch.
Mk/hk dankus on hit lead to either free crossup mk or ambiguous corpse hop non-corpse hop lk danku.
Ex danku is one of the strongest footsie tools in the game (except unfortunately it doesn’t give as much pressure advantage on hit, see one of my desired buffs); fast, effectively safe on block against almost all the cast, armor breaker. St mk is nice. Cr mk is shorter range than it looks but it’s still a shoto cr mk, ducks under a million things.
I rarely cancel cr mk into fireball in footsies. Why would I? If I’m gonna take a risk canceling into something, it’s usually gonna be the unfocusable, safe against most characters, free get-in mk/hk/ex danku. Except in tricks. Cr mk xx fireball fadc toward turns into tricks
Jump lk/hk or jump lk danku is a nice mixup against much of the cast. Lk danku beats lots of antiair normals and even antiair specials. Fine, backdash, I want you in the corner anyway, and being at your backdash range is better than where I was. Many chars can’t punish this well from their backdash range and/or have to backdash early to punish me at all. Backdash was something my opponents started doing some time ago. Bugged me at first that I couldn’t hit them, then I realized the payoff of getting nearer the corner and nearer the opponent simultaneously was nice. Still have to do air normal/air lk danku sometimes to keep them honest. But that’s fine.
Get past fireball pressure with patience. Also neutral jumps, back up to safe jump range then jump, trade my own fireball, my own ex fireball through, focuses, instant air lk dankus over, u1. Jump toward every once in a while, can’t let opponent feel comfortable throwing too many fireballs obviously.
Again, don’t need Dan to be great in mid-range, just need slight buffs to a couple options. Already good up close, doesn’t need to be jack of all trades.
please go back to the moment you decided to include emo ryu and broly, and cut off your tongue.
I don’t expect Capcom to go back on their decision to make this game more offensively oriented.
So with a character like Dhalsim, I wonder how they’re going to handle him.
I agree on most of it but you went wrong on some Oni-changes.
-U1 is a very viable anti-cross up and safe on block when done on the ground. Making him have a srk cancel would make him super safe when he has 2 bars and a ultra. Especially because his srk and u1 hits some characters during their backdash
-EX slash is good enough already since its a ultra set-up (especially in the corner. Giving it an even better hitbox would be unnecesary.
-Dunno about the air U1…bigger hitbox yes, but no faster start-up. Its already safe on block when done on the ground.
I really don’t think you’ve tried playing Gouken.
oh that? Well if you are cornered, then you are fucked and have 1 frame to backdash, or 1 frame to EX Tatsu. as does everybody else in the game. If its a randdom EX FBA or FBA, like its done by 99% of the players and its probably the source of your agony a simple nuetral jump with a move like Sagats nj.hk stop that shit cold.
u are being blunt and stubburn on purpose. Stop it and don’t generalize please.
Not sure why you were responding to my post… Are you suggesting Gouken is a bastion of 7-3s? Because he’s not. Especially not in AE (excluding the twins). A lot of unfavorable match ups, sure.
I’m not sure what you’re talking about with doing U1 on the ground. I’m not talking about the one where he’s on the ground and shoots it straight up. I’m talking about the one where you jump in the air and shoot the ultra down at a 45 degree angle. That’s the one I find to be almost useless. It seems almost impossible to even use it for chip damage. I don’t bother to try it much, but I doubt it’s completely safe if they avoid it.
As for EX Slash, I won’t lose much sleep if they don’t improve it. However, the way it currently is it’s kinda gimmicky once your opponents learn how it works. Even when you have them cornered they see you glow yellow. Sure, they might think it’s an EX Ground Pound and block, but usually not. At mid-screen, I’m finding the best use for it is as a counter-poke. Like, you predict they’ll throw out a cr.MK and you use EX slash to hit their move. Doing it raw, or even canceled off a move seems hard to land if the opponent is familiar with Oni. Alternatively, I’d be OK with it being slightly less punishable on block. I mean Gouken’s EX rush isn’t -14 or whatever like this move. I’m not adamant on changing this move, but I don’t think making it slightly less punishable would skyrocket him to broken either.
As for SRK being FADC-able on block, every other shoto can do it. Sure it makes him safe/dangerous when he has two bars but that’s the same with many characters. I would be OK with being able to only being able to FADC the 2nd hit, on hit or block. Maybe that’d make it easier to bait?
While I totally agree with the idea of Oni being able to FADC his DP. They’d have to take away some of the buffs it has. Oni’s DP has A LOT more invincibility than any other shoto’s DP. (1-8 full invi / 9-10 hit invi / 11-18 lower half full invi / 8 onwards airborne) - HP SRK for Oni. (1~2f Invincible, 3~4f unthrowable, 3~16f lower body invincibility) HP SRK for Ryu.
-Just saying that his Ultra is already good and doesnt need any serious buffing
-None of the other shotos has a anti cross-up Ultra and Oni’s srk is way better than the other shotos srks. So making his srk fadc-able would mean protected from everything that attacks him from the front and all cross-ups. Might srew up some match-ups.
An 8-2 (El Fuerte) is easily worth 2 7-3s.
Put bluntly, Gouken has several matchups that are easily 6.5-3.5 going against him. His only saving grace is that the Fei match is pretty close to even. He can bait chicken wing with his fast fireball recovery and Kongo the piss out of it on reaction.
Yun is at least 7-3, if not 7.5-2.5 or worse. Yang’s in that ‘easily 6.5-3.5’ range.