No throws sucked in sf 4. It’s what you could do after a throw which made them significant. And only certain characters could setup up crazy stuff of a throw. Character like Balrog and Chun Li basically had to rely on throw damage which only went so far. There was a huge difference when Rog threw you versus when Akuma, Seth, or Viper threw you. Oki was bad in sfiv, only a handful of characters took advantage of it. And it shows based on tournament results.
You do have a lot to worry about because mixups are high low, and they genuine high low mixups. Many Tekken characters convert big on confirming lows. Many Tekken characters have great lows as well. You can’t just block high all day. And Tekken character have really good range on their lows and mids. Sf characters you have to be practically kissing someone to be in overhead range. Tekken characters also have can cancel off of more their normals and confirm from further range. Mid range against a lot of Tekken characters is not where you want to be. And were talking 300-400 damage off of hit confirms a lot of the time meterless. Also Tekken characters take better advantage of charge cancelling, a lot of them have faster and safer dashes than sf charscters. The majority being 17 frames. So they do have a stronger mixups game than sf characters who rely more on tight block strings and throw mixups. Tekken characters are centered high low mixups.
Not sure how applicable that will be in this game. Despite Hugo’s large character model standing when he’s crouching it seems like his hurtbox has been normalized to that of an average size character. Stuff that clearly looks it should hit him whiffs like it would on normal sized characters. Juri’s M Fuhajin passes seamlessly through his god dang skull. Same with all tatsu’s iirc (including Toro’s which looks ridiculous). So he gets the benefits of huge ass hitboxes without the repercussions of always having a huge ass hurtbox. Good for Hugo I guess. Rat bastard.
so this went from balance discussion, to tier listing. Fantastic. Well, since everybody seems to at least be doing the top 5 thing, here’s mine, in no particular order:
Ryu
Rufus
Raven
King
Hugo
They all seem to work with any partner, are capable of big damage, can create and take advantage of juggles, and just work well in this game type.
I play xiayou since she is my main in Tekken. I think she is going to be all about mobility and punishing shifts. But she may need to turtle it out and play keep away until she finds that hit. She can throw a lot of stuff out there raw. She basically needs to force people commit and then start her offense. But she converts big off of hit confirms and landing overheads. I don’t think she’s hard execution wise. I can do her charge cancelling loops and her one frame link off of a heavy wheel of fortune. I think her biggest struggle is in the neutral game versus good Somers like Sagat, Guile, Sim, Ryu and others. Due to a lot of her stuff being interruptable, she has to really be good at stance canceling her normals, and crouch cancelling her stances. Takes a little more fingerwork, but I can see where she can be fun. Plus her charge cancelling sweep loop is so fun to pull off.
I think she’ll end up where she usually is in Tekken. A solid mid tier, but not a solid enough game to compete with big boys. But her good footspeed will make her a nusance to deal with. I just think she is going to have to make good reads to get herself started, and be more of a yomi character.
Poongko has been using cross assault (both charactes on scree, whatever the name is) for finishing rounds when the opponent has like 10-20% health. Might be better to do an ex, tag cancel, ex for chip though.
Pandora’s efectiveness remains to be seen. Biggest problem is definetly time outs.
this. Pandora seems to be useless, aside from last minute stuff if you’re both down to no health. The 8 seconds is too short, and nobody uses Pandora. Its like they were afraid of the backlash after X-Factor.
And yes, timeouts suck. All these suggestions for solutions, when they should just add more time
People complaining about timeouts have never seen high level Tekken Tag or high level Samurai Showdown. In Samurai Showdown 5 SP there was even a mechanic to turn the timer temporarily. Some games just lend themselves to timeout more, doesn’t.mean the game is bad.
Regular throws suck in both games. Compared to the older SF games they’re just ass period. To compare the two (SFIV vs. SFxT) apparently throw start up frames are even slower in SFxT and have less range so regular throws are about as garbage as it gets in this game. If you wanna argue into how that plays into smart offense or whatever that’s another thing…but the bottom line is between both games the throws themselves suck in comparison to the old games. Only new Capcom game with old school throws you actually have to worry about is MVC3. Like you said before…there’s only like a small section of the cast where you literally have to worry about dying after the opponent throws you in SFIV. Especially with all of the wake up options and how they’re forced to safe jump OS perfectly on every throw to keep you locked down. In Super Turbo or 3S it was just an option to continue pressure, not so much a whole requirement.
The SF characters aren’t going to be relying on tight blocks strings and throw mix ups because you aren’t going to be regular throwing people in this game unless they fall asleep. Especially not with the huge stages and slow walk speeds for most of the cast. Plus the ability to roll out SF Alpha/Marvel style even IF you get thrown. You get thrown once for minimal damage and then people are gonna have to come up with elaborate stuff to cover your rolls to ever throw you or genreally mix you up again.
Because those two are nothing like Asuka? Asuka is a mixup heavy character who hits like a truck, herormals lacking for footsies is alleviated by having a character on point and her second to help her get in to deal her massive fucking damage.
he has a good crossup, which can be set up from mekong delta escape and pogo mixups as mentioned.
more importantly, he has dat pipe and has a really good runaway game. that alone makes him better than cammy and a lot of characters mentioned in the A tier.
yeah, if youre comparing to old games, then i agree both games throws suck. but i dont see how anyone could believe that this is a better option in any way.
the way i see it, barring any real break thrus in tech, offense is gonna be super stale in about 2 months when you know what strings from what characters hit high/low. i just dont see any real reason to ever hit a button if you dont know youre at frame advantage.
ok you threw me, i’ll just mix up my backdash/roll/reversal/regular stand and reset to neutral more often than not.
and then, even if throws somehow become relevant, i’ll just pick auto tech and keep blocking
There only reason why throws were good in older game was due to damage of throws. Throws got weakened starting with ST with the throw softener mechanic. In ST they were still relevant only because off of a throw tech you can setup some guranteed situations due to the jerky landing off of a throw softener. Plus in ST there are more situations where damage in guaranteed no matter what you did. This isn’t just the throw game, but everything else in the game like crazy hitboxes and random dizzies.
Throws haven’t been great in SF games for awhile now. They were the strongest before ST because you couldn’t break them, so you relied on counter throwing if you knew a throw was coming.
Throws were great in 3s either. They were easy to tech, but you got thrown due to Kara throwing, and the fear of parties. Still top level 3s players broke a good amount.of throws in that game. Kuroda breaks like 90% of all throws in 3s, and I couldn’t imagine that woild happen if throws were real mixups in that game.
The reason why people got thrown in 3s and sfiv is the same reason people will get thrown in this game. It’s because they are mindfuckrd and afraid of something. You could throw people all day in 3s because they didn’t want to commit to a breaking a throw. Thry were afraid of getting hit low which could be confirmed into super arts. They were also afraid of whiffing, so they freeze up.
Whiff punishment will huge in this game. They gave almost every character improved normals, sped up jumps, and increased damage. Sure if a sf character gets point blank you may read his throw. But he can also cross you up, and crossups are even meatier this game. They can take a step and sweep you to punish your throw whiff. Or they can frame trap you. So while they don’t habe high low mixups like Tekken characters, they do force you into situations where you dont want to guess wrong.
As far rolling concerned there will be mixups to cover rolling. I’ve found a few myself besides just jump back. You can setup ambigous situations for rollers. Or you can maintain pressure. There is no sure fire way to punish rolls, but if someone is constantly waking up the same way, its up to you to punish that not the engine. A predictable roller is still at a disadvantage provided you did a combo which setup the Oki. You have even more getup options in Tekken, VF, and Soul Calibur but you also have Oki mixups to make up for that. And I see a lot of character with this type Oki. The problem a sfiv player will have is that they are use to guaranteed Oki, and its not guranteed here. That a good thing to me, option selects really took away a lot of mind games.
If they Tekken characters had a strong neutral game they would be broken. also a good amount of the Tekken cast have great midrange footsies. They will struggle with strong zoning, but they seem exception at whiff punishment and true 50/50s
Can’t really comment on Balrog, but Bison is interesting to me.
His s.MK and s.RH are still strong pokes, especially since he can chain them into a character that can do real damage off the follow-up combo. Bison -> Kazuya is still 350 damage or so, meterless, off a random s.MK. That’s pretty awesome.
Normally I shit all over crossrush combos, but it really lets him turn his good pokes into something scary - like another character’s damage and okizeme game. Viscant won a local last night with Bison/Gief doing exactly that. Poke, confirm, combo… oki with Gief. Rinse and repeat.
I do like that his j.MP sets someone into a juggle state so you can chase people down that are Up+Backing you. j.MP-> j.MP -> st.HP -> Psycho Crusher -> tag cancel to someone else is like a 450+ damage combo.
He can still get throws because his forward walk speed is Top 5 in the game. He can get combos off a counter-hit s.RH anti-air. He can run the hell away.
I don’t think he’s top tier in this game because he does have issues, but I think he has some great exploitable tools.
A few issues… his links are hard. Just like in SF4, I don’t see him making big comebacks because of his lack of good mix-up. I wouldn’t play him as your second character for this reason. Keep him first so you have better odds of playing from an even life count, or playing ahead if you get the opening hits. His tag/launcher follow-up combos and okizeme game are also underwhelming, so he’s really weak in that second spot.
Hey guys, Im new to the game and not that good in fighting games (but I do love them lol). Im playing Julia now, whats the general consensus on her? It seems you have to play her to build the meter and then unleash her super art since its so fast and strong. Any good tips for her and good partners? thanks!