How are they not conducive to any form of competitive play? The ball spawns, you earn the attack and it’s up to you to utilize it so that the opponent cannot dodge it, which is not always possible. It can be used to play to win, there’s plenty of mindgames associated with it and getting it has the most skill required of any item you’re allowing.
But the balance criterion issue, which I don’t care for but will respect anyway because this is your project and not mine, is why my original plea was to not judge them like they were items. They’re clearly very different beasts that work under completely different rules than any other item in the game. If they’re judged like the other items, then of course they’ll break your balance criterion-- that’s just because the criterion applies to normal items and they’re obviously not a normal item.
Well, I can tell you why I personally don’t believe they are conductive to competitive play. First of all, Final Smashes are, for all intents and purposes, Smash Bros.’ version of the super move. Problem is that there is no way to counter them. Supers in MvC2, for instance, can be blocked although you still receive a bit of damage. You can’t block Final Smashes; they have ultimate priority and go through shields. Most fighting games give supers a few frames of invincibility, but few have invincibility throughout the entirety of the attack, meaning that a well placed projectile, or even just a well timed punch in some cases, can interrupt and stop the attack; not so in Smash. This further complicates punishment because if I whiff a FS, I retain invincibility until the attack finishes, which means I can just hold shield until I’m done and my shield will come out at the first available frame (as long as I’m on the ground). Add to that how some FS can net multiple KO’s (SS, Landmasters, even Wario Man, if used correctly) and you already have enough strikes for an out. I know you don’t agree with me, but the fight for the Smash Ball is a TERRIBLE way to implement any attack that can OHKO (and many FS’ can), which is where I draw the line. Any time I can snipe a super with Link simply because I spam my arrows and bombs I know that battling for the Smash Ball is a bad idea. Any time I see Lucas TEAR THROUGH Smash Balls with PK Thunder, I know that they didn’t even properly playtest the damn things.
…but that’s just my personal opinion. It just so happens that the majority of the people with a vested interest in this project agree.
But in M:TG, the game doesn’t have to change to be competitive, only the deck. The rules are still the same as when you first opened a starter deck and played from the first time, to playing in the championship round of a $100,000 event. The choices made as a player, as to what include in their deck (as well as the company itself BANNING any akuma level broken cards), is the only things that change.
But anyway, this really shouldn’t be a topic to debate “competitiveness of games” theory. So I had an on topic question:
What’s the stance on Stages and counterpick choices?
Man, stage discussion goes back and forth almost as much as item discussion. I haven’t seen any stage discussion worth its salt so far (granted, I haven’t looked very hard because I’ve been preoccupied). The only thing we know for certain is that the Neutral Stages are FD, Battlefield, Yoshi’s Island (Brawl), Lylat Cruise, Smashville, and Pokemon Stadium (Melee). As for counterpicks, we don’t have anything set in stone yet; right now, we’re leaving it up to individual tournament organizers to pick their stage lists. Personally, I’d rather continue working on releasing our 2v2 impressions than get a stage list out.
There are many reasons Final Smashes are the way they are.
A- You only get one shot at a certain timeframe to use it. Unlike in most other fighting games, notably MvC2, where you can stock them and use them when the circumstances are absolutely ideal.
B- Smash has the ability to fully negate damage through a dodging mechanic. MvC2, SSF2 do not.
C- You are not handed a Final Smash through virtue of normal combat. In SSF2, MvC2, et al- supers are an INEVITABILITY. If they were unblockable with full invincibility throughout in those cases, it’d be pretty much ‘whoever gets their super first wins’.
D- There is no de facto damage cap on supers in other fighting games. You can say ‘Landmasters, Wario, et al can take more than one stock!’ all you want, but those scenarios are not guarunteed and very freak scenarios. In order for that to happen, a Landmaster or Wario Man or whatever have to absolutely KO within seconds of activation.
And THEN, they have to try and KO again. In order to do this, the opponent either has to be pretty bad (and when should we award excuses for that?), make a mistake or be backed into a corner. None of which are guarunteed and the user of the final smash may even KO themselves trying!
Final Smashes multi-stocking are a freak event. 90% of the time there is a complete de facto damage cap of a single stock on them.
E- If they were blockable and did not have full invincibility, most of them would be useless. In a fighting game like MvC2 you can still chip someone to death. In Smash, a % isn’t necessarily any sort of indicator as to how close to death a character is. Someone can remain in the game for a long time at 300+% if they’re good about it. The point is, a Final Smash can’t just do a lot of % and expect to be a viable option. It has to KO or put the user in some advantageous position TO KO.
F- Zoning. Zoning Zoning Zoning. You’re in a constrained space in most other fighting games. In Smash you are not. You don’t have the space to dodge everything, therefore supers must be blockable. Not the case in Smash.
There is no reason they cannot be competitively viable. I simply disagree with your reasoning 100%.
And while Lucas is ‘tearing through’ that Smash Ball with PK Thunder you pretty much have a free shot at him. A good opponent will use the situation to their advantage and not let you have the Smash Ball. It’s a lot more balanced than you think.
Not only that, but with smash ball play, you’ll find dozens of situations where you do NOT want to activate your final smash, and you want to try and save it for the next stock on your opponent or some other such situation. You can have the smash ball knocked out of you while taking this risk, and thats depth, my friend.
Oh, it is in every way depth. I fully agree with you there. I don’t know how many times saving my Final Smash saved my ass (I sometimes use Link’s as a recovery move, and it is glorious). But that one instance of depth, again, does not counteract the other multiple (and more serious) transgressions. I’ll reply to Carbunkle’s post to illustrate.
A. There is no timeframe to use a Final Smash. If I break the Smash Ball, I can use my Final Smash in a second or in twenty minutes; I retain that aura until either I use the move, I die, or the ball is knocked out of me.
B. Blocking a super in any other traditional fighting game negates a majority of damage, but as you said, not all. Those games allow you an option of escape (in a manner of speaking) even if you can’t get out of the way. Final Smashes are un-blockable and un-dodgeable (I’m speaking, of course, of Air/Spot Dodges); there are exceptions as far as Air/Spot Dodge go, but they are the exceptions that prove the rule.
C. We aren’t talking about what would make other game’s supers broken, we’re talking about why Smash’s supers are broken. Along those lines, however, Smash Balls are also an inevitability. Even if all items are on (to dilute the spawn pool) and turned to low, 1-2 Smash Balls are guaranteed to spawn; that’s the way the game is programmed to handle them.
D. In all technicality, all supers in any game have a de facto damage cap; if you don’t block a super, it will do the same amount of damage every time, just like any other move. If anything, Final Smashes are the ones without a damage cap (well, transformational ones, at any rate; Zelda’s/Link’s/Ike’s and the like can only get one stock if it hits because that’s the way the move works) because a smart, high-level tournament player will wait until he can kill within a few seconds of activating the attack, then wait for the spawn for a second kill. This, however, is not as big of a deal because only a few of the roster have Final Smashes that are even capable of multiple KO’s, and bans should only happen for universal reasons.
E. Of course they wouldn’t be useless; people can use supers in any other fighting game for applying pressure to a foe, and there’s no reason that Final Smashes couldn’t have done the same while still having a counter of some sort other than ‘don’t get hit.’ And you’re right in saying that % isn’t a 1:1 measure of how long until death… but it’s pretty damn close. High-level Smash tournaments have been won and lost (on a pretty frequent basis, actually) thanks to chip damage (look at Fox’s blaster). Besides, look at Olimar’s FS. It does tons of damage, but doesn’t guarantee a KO; it’s still balls-awesome, and that’s because of the amount of damage it does.
F. That extra dodging space also work to the advantage of many Final Smashes, too. Zero Laser can be aimed (to some degree) and can be activated for any distance to score a hit; unless you are a multijumper, you will eventually fall into a well aimed shot. Again, Link’s Final Smash has crazy range on it. The transformation Final Smashes couldn’t care less about range; they can chase you down.
And, while you attempt to punish that Lucas, he will open the ball, get knocked away from you, and as soon as Brawl’s abysmally short hit stun wears off he will hit ‘B’ and murder you.
This is wrong, I can easily name a dozen supers from other games that have varied damage. And there’s also the combo deterioration to take into account, a system that is present in many games.
Just think of Yun’s Genei-jin for instance. Or try the 17 hit version of Chun-li’s super in SF3 and compare it to the 20 hit version.
What I meant was that every move has a max amount of damage that it can do in an optimal setting. Hitting every blow of Chun-li’s 20-hit super without deterioration and such will always yield a maximum amount of damage; if you do 35% of a damage bar in an optimal situation with any move (super or not), and do it again in another optimal situation, you won’t magically do 45% this time.
stopped reading there. Marth’s FS can be dodged on reflex, Dedede’s can be overcome just by not being a total retard, Pokemon Trainer’s can be avoided by ledge hogging or simply being behind the pokemon, Pikachu’s can be avoided simply by rolling repeatedly, etc. I could go on and on. also, that’s IF they get the smashball
I don’t think Smashballs should be on simply cause they’re kinda powerful, but it’s not as if there’s no way to deal with them
You misunderstand. There is a difference between ‘having a counter’ and ‘don’t get hit’. Dodging and countering are not equal. Marth’s FS can be comboed into by (IIRC, I’m not a Marth main) like 7 of his moves, in which case you can’t dodge. You can’t shield Dedede’s or P. Trainer’s, and Pikachu… well, I have to give you that one, because it’s balls-easy to avoid. Spot dodges rape Pika and Sonic’s FS.
Jack, please name for me ONE super in ANY game (other than naruto gamecube) that can be dodge, evaded, or blocked after the combo leading into it starts.
Game. Set. Match. This train of thought you are on is derailed as hell. The solution is ALWAYS dont get hit.
you just lost all credibility right there… I’m just gonna assume you’ve never seen a good Yun or a good Magneto. Hell, Magneto can OCV without any supers.
You dont ban something because people can combo into it.
Yes, there is a specific timeframe. The time between when you get the ball and when you lose it. It’s not like other fighting games where you can stock supers and hold them until juuust the right time with absolutely no risk. The longer you withhold the final smash, the greater the risk of you losing it because the opponent isn’t just going to stop attacking you.
All Final Smashes are dodgable. That shouldn’t even have to be said since it’s been proven numerous times.
Of course, there’s situations where it is incredibly hard to dodge a FS (or even impossible) but that is because the player used it right.
Not true. It’s an inevitability that A Smash Ball will spawn. It’s not an inevitability that either you or your opponent will get it. In fact, if the Smash Ball is out for a certain timeframe, it will actually leave.
Final Smashes are not inevitable. Only the spawn of the Smash Ball is.
Not true, due to many many factors- randomized damage, combo damage dilution, enemy defense. Supers in 90% of fighting games have randomized damage and may do more or less to different targets in different situations.
And it doesn’t matter what happens before or after the FS. When the FS is active, it can only take one stock at the very most barring a few freak scenarios.
And the smart player waiting for that kill stands a higher and higher risk of losing the Smash Ball. See A.
But Olimar’s final smash is unavoidable (to an extent) damage. That’s why it’s useful. Imagine if all Pit’s Final Smash did was %. Absolutely minimal knockback. Sure, Pit could zone with it, but it’s so pathetically easy to dodge that the only reason Pit needs to use it at all is so the opponent doesn’t get it :P.
Don’t get hit is fine in the context of Smash. Given that you have a large area to dodge, a hit isn’t necessarily a guarunteed KO even at high percents and the ability to literally negate damage at any time through dodging.
Yet Samus’ final smash is subject to gravity (which means if she tries anything fancy in the air with it and no platform is below her, she is basically dead) and leaves her completely open to attack afterward. And without invincibility, too!
Yet, Link’s Final Smash doesn’t work unless he is even with you vertically. This can only happen on flat stages. Otherwise, he has to actually worry about jumping to tag you.
Transformation FS’ are fun, because they can chase you down and yet- you’re totally free to run and use ledge invincibility to dodge them too.
He’s immobile during PK Thunder and loses control of it as soon as you hit him :P. If you try to punish him he is only doing one thing: flying away in a direction of your choice.
sigh I never said you did… now we’re just getting off topic. This is not a MvC2 discussion thread, so I don’t care what Magneto can/can’t do. It’s irrelevant. The point is that, as things stand right now, for the ease of use, simplicity, unbalance, and all the other stuff we’ve already said in here, we aren’t calling Smash Balls balanced enough for 1v1 play. Next topic, please. [/exasperation]
That is a detailed list of all our impressions, some admittedly more detailed than others. The introductory paragraph has the three main criterion we used for balance.
You opened this up for discussion, Jack. We are telling you that we disagree a bit with some of your ‘findings’, and are calling you out as being dead wrong or way off on a few others. On the topic of the smashball, you are way way off.