i’m not surprised.
it shows.
why would you even think that you can now explain to me the most basic SF strats,…
while you were probably being breast fed and learning to walk, i was avidly playing SF at arcades,spots, gatherings and haunts.
so why would you think that i just picked the sf franchise up yesterday?
i’m not saying that i couldn’t learn many many things fom you and others, or that i’m still awesome at SF, i’m not, i suck at it now and for all FGs nowadays…but…wtf…r u…talkin about?
this is basic strat shit i was referring to.
with age comes some degree of wisdom.
that goes for experience with FGs as well. i’ve learned certain things over the years when it comes to strategies in SF.
play the game the way you want.
i’ll play it the way i’ve always have.
lets leave it as that.
Someone linked me to this page and i have to say its a different spin on things.
As unpopular as our friend Elton is, he does make some sense. Logically Tomo would have had to have been many many times better than Watson to compete with the best of japan and he simply wasnt. So the whole measuring stick using Watson argument does hold water in my humble opinion. We have all seen how he fared against the japanese. Like it or not, Elton does have an argument.
Anyway thought I would share some nice footage i found of the grandmaster Tomo playing a bit of HF
In your example of Alexander the Great, he would be considered a great general for his time…but the world has evolved. I’m not sure if you’re trying to argue that the OGs of the past are better than the best players from Japan right now…if you are arguing this, it’s pretty laughable. The game was very underdeveloped at that time - sure, the footsies could still have been good but the knowledge of the game would not be nearly as good as it is now, and so the metagame in the past would be based on a lack of knowledge. It’s pretty far fetched to think that Tomo (in his prime) would be able to beat Otochun, ARG, Taira, Tamashima, Pony Zangief, Kurahashi, yaya, Yoshimura, Daigo and tons of others. In fact, I question if he would be able to beat damdai.
Man why are people so caught up in convincing others that Tomo was or wasn’t better than Japanese players? Who gives a shit! What we do know is that he was the very best Street Fighter II: World Warrior/Champion Edition/Hyper Fighting/Super player in the USA at the height of its popularity. Hands down & without question. We KNOW this to be a fact! It’s for this simple reason that people like myself like to see & hear about players from that era & why threads like this are made. Those are the games that we enjoyed the most. Kuni Funada said, just his opinion of course, that there were only 5 players on Tomos level in Japan which was the only comparison I ever heard of in that regard. And there’s no possible way that anybody could prove there theories now days anyway so stop hating!
^^ I think you’re making a really fair point there. Tomo was the best in the US back then for sure.
I think where it gets a little bit contentious is when you have people making out these guys were almost superhuman. If we are gonna be real, the likes of Tomo and Watson were very very good players playing in a time when the game and strats were underdeveloped.
People like Elton and Emil are just opposing the fiction that somehow the best players of all time existed back then and noone will ever be better than them. It has no basis in reality. A lot of people are talking like authorities based on some pretty limited evidence. Essentially the chain of narration comes from a couple of people, mainly people with vested interests and then by other people who repeat those stories uncritically. Historically its unsound and such evidence wouldnt make it into the history books as fact.
Going back through the thread i see that Graham wolfe completely contradicts Jeff’s account of beating the wolfe brothers 32-0. Graham reckons its in reverse. So who is being truthful? Who can we honestly believe?
Anyway, this is all fascinating and i love the different perspectives. Personally I just see it that the likes of Watson and Tomo were the giants on whose shoulders subsequent generations stood on but the later generations surpassed those guys. Its the way of the world.
Regarding the Tomo and Japanese players of the time, I do actually know of two people who we active in both the US and the Japanese scenes during the Golden Era. They said there were maybe only one to three players who may have been on Tomo’s level. Ill be writing about this on my site and hopefully speaking to both guys (one has already agreed) so stay tuned.
I think you are referring to that Zangief player who’s name escapes me. Oh maybe Kuuni.
He travelled between the US and Japan and would have seen the best of both. But anyway, Tomo may well have been the Daigo of his age. We can never know for sure of course because Tomo never played those Japanese guys.
I also feel the japanese have a very different work ethic and approach to training to the Americans and they tend to be more advanced in most SF games. We have seen that from the days of SF3 to Alpha, even SF4 today.
Im pretty sure the Japs were the first to Plink on Sf4, US players noticed their strange inputs and then realised what they were doing and applied it. Im also pretty sure the Japs dominate in most tourneys past and present.
The problem I and others have is the idea that noone will ever be better than those mythical players from the golden age. That in itself is a myth and isnt possible because the knowledge was underdeveloped and the 2nd best from that era ie Watson transitioned to other games in his prime, and wasnt on the level of the Japanese or even some of his US peers like Valle and Choi.
When i read certain posts in this thread that is the way it comes across, almost like they were “better” humans and that noone will ever be better than them in whatever respective game they play. If Watson truly was a “better” human then those advanced skills would have taken him to the very top in later games.
Lets just be real about this, enjoy the old tales, give credit where its due, and thank them for what they did. They paved the way for others, others built on their knowledge, surpassed them and created new strategies, but dont elevate them to the status of gods. Its just plain silly and vaguely insulting for anyone who understands the game.
Do you want to compare those POS games with OG SF2? You are a joke, sir.
He stopped playing seriously. With all honesty, we all know only SF4 retards really believe one can compare the level of competition of a game one found in every block at the local arcade, the one most played game of its era, with perhaps the 10th most played game of today or whatever SF4 is. The truth, relatively speaking, very few people play fighting games, nowadays, and that is the very reason the old players had to be good, and why the Japanese have been ahead since the decline of arcades all around the world by the end of the nineties.
You mean new heads have less knowledge and play worse games. In no account these kids you see nowadays have comparable knowledge to the OGs. In fact, they know way less than me, and I am far, very far from a top player in SF2. It is laughable that this small part of the new generation that still plays fighting games know they ass deeply as they used to in the nineties.
^
Quite an angry man arent you. I dont recall calling you or anyone else a joke. Kindly refrain from personal insults in future.
First of all SF3 isnt a BS game and neither is SF4 and im not biased cos i play them all including the old games like HF and ST but even if they were im not comparing the games, im comparing the work ethic and approach to fighting games in general. I think its also reasonable to say that the japs probably applied that same work ethic to SF2 WW, CE, HF and Super. I didnt mention ST because the Jap kings of ST are in a class of their own, we already know that and we have the evidence to prove it.
New “heads” do not have less knowledge. How is that possible when as has already been pointed out earlier in the thread, we have studied SF2 like no other game over the years. We have greater knowledge and strategies combined with the best players, people like Daigo, Kurahashi etc.
Im inclined to concur with Emil when he says that he doubts Prime Tomo or Watson could beat the likes of Damdai.
Also remember the majority of the info we have comes from Jeff. I have a big problem with that because it is a very narrow and potentially biased chain of narration, it seems bigger because other people who werent there repeat it uncritically.
When i then see Graham Wolfe completely contradict Jeff’s account of events that went down we start entering murky waters. I know Graham as a very balanced and stand up guy so i prefer his account to Jeff’s.
I’d like to see Jeff’s response to this. He never did reply.
Given that the vast majority of what we know about the Golden Era comes from Jeff I think its important to question him as a source.
Just so people understand the context of the above, here is Jeff’s original post. The games were said to have taken place on a HF machine. Bottom line is someone is “mistaken” here.
Personally i like the testimony of the Wolf brothers more. They are cool, down to earth, simple guys. Jeff is a self confessed ego maniac down here. Someone else pointed this out based on their own observations. Something is badly wrong here, i see it, others on here see it, others know it in their hearts but still cling to old comforting myths.
“
LAAkuma said:
[INDENT=1]The best story I have is when Mike and I went to a fun tournament in Sunnyvale on Super Turbo after I stopped playing about 9 months. I got 4th and I think Mike got 2nd. I think Thomas won, he was good reaction wise, but his weakness was he didnt know the game that well, he was all reaction. Very fast.[/INDENT]
[INDENT=1] [/INDENT]
[INDENT=1]Anyway, it was when Mike and I were at Alex and gram Wolfs house. Those guys really, and I mean REALLY were talking it up abotu HYPER FIGHTING. saying all kinds of madness. as was all the other Nor Cal players. They all gave their confidence in the wolfs to beat me down, and Mike went ahead and let me have a go at them because he know I was king on that game. So mike was like upstairs eating, and Alex and Gram closed in on me for revenge from bama. (I guess)[/INDENT]
[INDENT=1] [/INDENT]
[INDENT=1]I used to be so arrogant, and so ego maniac driven, I didnt just want to win, I am always looking to embarass people. I shoudl have taped that, it was classic.[/INDENT]
[INDENT=1] [/INDENT]
[INDENT=1]I used to carry cards on me. They said what I always said out loud. Something like “playing me is like throwing your money away on the floor” shit like that. So I came out and stated the usual things that come out of my mouth to the wolfs.[/INDENT]
[INDENT=1] [/INDENT]
[INDENT=1]“I will go ahead and pick first, because it doesnt matter who you use, you have no chance, everyone knows it”[/INDENT]
[INDENT=1] [/INDENT]
[INDENT=1]I picked Blanka. They were shocked. They really were. Mike laughed and didnt bother to watch all the matches, he just went in another room, Mike likes to eat. Just look at him!. lol anyway.[/INDENT]
[INDENT=1] [/INDENT]
[INDENT=1]Guile, Ryu, Zangief, Dhalsim, you name it they tried. Gram, alex back and forth for a LONG TIME. And then the truth came out.[/INDENT]
[INDENT=1] [/INDENT]
[INDENT=1]I think it was 32 or 33 to ZERO. Jeff Schaefer VS them. well call it 32-0. It was over like 10 years ago, I think its 32 or 33. One of the 2. TO ZERO!. I think they won like 2 rounds TOTAL in all those games.”[/INDENT]
No, dude. You can not compare hit-confirm combo games with SF2. That’s a complete different world.
The whole world played the shit out of SF2 when it was released. The Japanese did not have more training than the others by then. The comparison with ST is completely unfair: they have been playing the game for several years, while western players went for FOTY titles.
First of all, they have less knowledge because they played SF2 less. Second, the best players have the best strategies and training. Casuals and stream spectators, don’t. Extending the deep understanding of the game from the better players to the whole game community would already be a big mistake; extending it to the new generation would be an abomination. In no account do they have such understanding: it is their lack of knowledge and arrogance that leads them to such wrong conclusions.
Adult Choi (life, work obligations) beat Damdai pretty convincingly in HDR, I do not see how on earth he could do better against people who played the game against better competition and had much more time to play and perfect their skills. This is really senseless, in fact.
Sounds like Graham Wolfe is referring to ST in the post where he refers to the scores being in reverse. Will ask Jeff about that next time he’s on Supercade.
Highly unlikely unless you are suggesting Graham Wolfe cant read or his cognitive functioning is somewhat impaired and doesnt realise that he has a HF cabinet in his own basement. Goto 1:50 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8f6ejrHnxU&list=UUaL8NAksrlnvfYyKzwN10pA&index=12&feature=plpp_video
In his post and the video, Jeff is clearly discussing matches held in the Wolf brother’s house and he is clearly referring to HYPER FIGHTING:
"Anyway, it was when Mike and I were at Alex and gram Wolfs house. Those guys really, and I mean REALLY were talking it up abotu HYPER FIGHTING. saying all kinds of madness. as was all the other Nor Cal players"
Look at the top of Jeff’s post. He discusses a ST Tourney in Sunnydale "The best story I have is when Mike and I went to a fun tournament in Sunnyvale on Super Turbo after I stopped playing about 9 months."
Graham is initially simply making the point that the point that it was Sunnyvales Golden era on that game ie ST, it was their time and their game. It seems likely that Alex and Graham were at the Sunnyvale tourney and then invited them back to their house. This is clearer in the video and explains the relevance of mentioning the Sunnyvale ST tourney.
Graham then goes on to respond to the remainder of Jeff’s post. A seperate topic, denoted as follows "As for your record"
It is highly unlikely that Graham when responding to Jeff’s post, missed the fact that Jeff is discussing HYPER FIGHTING, it is in bold, back at his house etc and he had a very clear memory of the score. Jeff said 32-0 and Graham also said 32-0 but in reverse, so clearly discussing the same set of matches on HYPER FIGHTING.
I know Jeffs referring to Hyper Fighting. HELLOOOOO! It’s not hard to believe that he beat the Wolfe brothers in Hyper Fighting… HE WAS THE NUMBER TWO PLAYER IN THAT GAME! He’s better then they were at that game. By no means is that a outrageous or controversial statement. All I’m saying is from reading Grahams reply it sounds like he’s referring to ST & definitely makes more sense that they’d clean Jeff up in the game. They were two of the best. & Until we get a response from either player, both of whom I’m positive don’t give a shit, all we can do is speculate. Much like you’ve done in the above post. So I’ll now do the same - In Hyper Fighting I believe Jeff beat the Wolfe Bros… Don’t get mad bro!
I have explained the signifigance of the reference to ST and the fact that it is nigh on impossible for Graham to not realise that Jeff is talking about HF. In fact just like you couldnt miss it In fact its so obvious you went on to say HELLOOOO like im some sort of dumbass, but in fact made yourself look silly. Thanks for proving my point - Graham could not have missed that Jeff was talking about HF when he said 32-0.
How do you know Jeff was better than the Wolfe brothers at HF? It was after the HF era, they had a machine in their basement. Were you in the basement when the games went down?
It goes back to earlier points made that what we have is essentially a very narrow chain of narration, no footage but a few supporters who disseminate info unquestioningly. Seriously it is very worrying, do you believe people like David Icke just because they are charismatic and say reptilians are in power? Do you believe in fairys at the bottom of the garden because Mike Watson says so? Maybe 9/11 was an inside job just because the loose change guys say so.
Oh god it’s another Elton crusader… Okay bro we get it already! Japans the best at Street Fighter, OG Americans aren’t the greatest of all time & Osama destroyed the twin towers! Happy now?
^ I dont even wanna quote that post of yours. Some racist business right there!!!
And just cos i have an opinion im an “Elton crusader” Whats that about? You’re a friendly chap.
In fact its so obvious you went on to say HELLOOOO like im some sort of dumbass, but in fact made yourself look silly. Thanks for proving my point - Graham could not have missed that Jeff was talking about HF when he said 32-0.