I don’t mean to pick at you or say that anything you say is false
I just want you to read that entire post yourself
One of teh best posts ever. Great read man.
TrueSephiroth already did a good job of answering this, but there’s another aspect of CE and HF that may not that obvious. In those games, all the characters required the more or less the same level of execution to use. If you could use one charge or motion character, you could use them all. There was no such thing back then as using hard execution to balance certain characters. These days, big damage combos necessitate such features (if you can call them that), but back then all that mattered was how smart you were, and how quickly you could react. It wasn’t often you saw guys lose matches because they dropped a link, or missed a combo. In those days, if you lost it was because your opponent was better than you, not because Sagat raped you with DP FADC F.HK Ultra after he mashed through your mistimed 1f block string.
This not to say that games that demand good execution are inferior, it’s just that you can’t look back at games like CE and HF through SFIV and Blazblue tinted shades. There was only one opponent in OG SF. These days, you have to beat the challenger and the controls.
I really hope that they add a “vanilla” mode to SSFIV that makes the game play like SF2. Then maybe some of the newer players can begin to appreciate some of the things posted in this thread.
Eh, TrueSephiroth…have you actually seen Tomo play, aside from the extremely limited amount of footage posted here or are you just going on pure hearsay?
I think you are completely whack to think that some players that were playing in 1994 where the game (and fighting game mentalities in general) were very underdeveloped, would somehow be better than the current top players in Japan, with not just the amount of growth that the game got since 1994, but also Japan’s perfectionist mentality that has made them the tops in pretty much every single game.
The likeliness that Tomo would not just beat someone like Kurahashi, but even just the high level Japanese players that we don’t hear much about, is very slim.
Tomo said that Mike Watson was his greatest challenge. Now, unless Tomo was like 10 times better than Mike Watson, I don’t see how Tomo could measure up to the Japanese since there’s so many of them that are very
much above Watson.
Have we seen Watson fight the japanese in HF? HELL NAH.
This Japan vs. US debate is pointless. You guys know that right? Nobody can say for sure whether Tomo from 10 years ago could have beaten whoever in Japan now or whoever in Japan from 10 years ago. This shit never happened, and it never will happen or could even potentially happen. Even if we got Tomo for some reason to start playing SF again and go fight people in Japan, it wouldn’t be the same. It’s cool that you guys like to take sides and all but it’s a question that’s not worth thinking about, because it’s not going to be answered. Ever.
I’m pretty sure Kuni said Tomo would have been top 5 in Japan in HF… The US had
Tomo, Watson, and Schaefer but I’m sure Japan had their own legends during that time.
]
Does japan still play HF? No, do they play CE or WW? No, that got replaced with ST and they haven’t looked back. While I’m sure occassionally they might play it here and there it definitely isn’t getting the exposure and chance for growth that you’re assuming that it have like they’ve been playing HF non-stop for the last 15 years.
Fact is that Jeff said that Daigo was weaker than Tomo, Kuni says that he’s compare with japs best in OG SF2. And as seen from a poorer footie game in all the USA vs Jap tournaments that doesn’t seem to have changed. So in a game like HF were it doesn’t rely on some BS counter taking 50% life off and more on footies plus all the other gimmicks thats used in addition to that, it all goes back down to the basics. Which japan hasn’t shown to be on our level. If they try and play HF like they do ST, SF4 or whatever then they’d be in for a rude awakening.
the americans beat kurahashi back in 2000, as well as yuu vega, shootingD, Aniken etc… They beat nuki, daigo, tokido, roah at evos. Wolfe brothers got top 8 at sbo a few years ago. OG SF2 players compare well with japans best. and tomo was above all of them. but we are expected to think that if tomo didn’t move on to other things in life and stuck with SF that he’d be somehow wouldn’t do as well as they did… right.
this isn’t SF4, VS, VF, TK, 3s or anything else. Its OG SF2, we’ve proven time and time again that japan isn’t ahead of us in that. Hell a blind MK2 player practically went undefeated in japan like a decade ago.
I’m tired of having to repeat myself over and over again…
No, I’ve never seen Tomo play SFII before, in fact, nearly 80-90% of the people posting within this thread have never seen Tomo play before. However, the people who HAVE played against Tomo will vouch that the guy was on a completely different level.
Again, why would all of these players spew bs if it wasn’t real. I can understand one person saying one thing and another, however everyone who’s played, witnessed Tomo during his height would state he was clearly above everyone else. However the entire SFII community at the time must’ve set a conspiracy on Tomo right?
Seriously, everyone who has played/witnessed Tomo says he was the most dominant SFII player in WW/CE/HF. If that isn’t enough proof for you, then I don’t know what else to say.
Under developed? Why in the world has the spacing and footsies game deteriated over the years then? Why hasn’t it “improved” over the post-94 era? Growth in what per say? The mentality of how SFII has changed dramatically between Generation 1 and Generation II players that it’s vastly different, this is in part due to the gameplays of how SF is now currently as well.
It’s more whack for you to think that the current players of today would be able to stand a breath’s chance against the OG SFII gamers in WW/CE/HF. Those games, there is no bs 50% draining supers, or what not. In there, it’s all about zoning, spacing and footsies…something OG SFII players were deities in, and current Top SFII players today pale in comparison (a super small example is to watch those 94 matches with Watson to current Top SFII play today…HUGE difference when you don’t have all those universal options).
You can’t seem to comprehend this at all. Current Top Japanese players in ST, their footsie games are nowhere near as the 1st gen SFII players, due to the change of the game, and the mentality of current SFII players, however even through out the years, Japan players have proven that their footsie games were never ever on par with the USA anyhow, even now a days (A3 with Valle, SF4 with Wong as examples). The current mentality and gameplay of today in SFII would be easily defeated by a top prime player in the game of WW/CE/HF.
Kurahashi is a great player, however he would not be on the same level as Tomo. Compare both Guile’s, in contrast here. Kurahashi’s Guile actually struggles against characters in which Guile inherently would have trouble with. Tomo’s Guile could not be stopped by anyone or so called “counter” characters. Jeff even stated this, that with his Sagat, he could pin every single Guile player he came up against and flat out zone and destroy them (CE/HF Sagat was an absolute monster mind you, and in almost all cases has the advantage over Guile within their match ups).
However only Tomo’s Guile could Jeff not stop, no matter what, he couldn’t pin Tomo down with Tiger Shots, while on the other hand, methodically dodged projectiles and punished Sagat for every mis timed Tiger Shot into submission. You also factor in another huge, huge factor…spacing with projectiles against Tomo was an absolute nightmare.
Like Jeff stated, the guy barely, if ever got hit by a fireball, because of his uncanny ability to avoid it. If you are a Guile player and you can do this somehow, the matches against other projectile characters like Ryu, Sagat, etc, would become extremely more difficult for those players, because they will lose a great deal of the advantage that normally would be there for them.
Where’s Kurahashi’s experience in facing a Ryu who would punish every single one of your whiffed pokes? Move out of your best ranges and seek to bait you constantly to throw out your tactics so they can be punished? In fact, Kurahashi has not met a player with as good of a footsie game as the OG SFII players of that caliber ever. There is absolutely no ST player today doing crazy footsie domination like these guys were, none.
This makes Guile players afraid to throw out a poke, because of their ability to destroy you for it. Even Watson stated very clearly vs Guile in that time period, that if your capable of doing this, the match falls heavily in favor of Ryu who can simply outfootsie Guile to submission. Still don’t believe me? Thomas Osaki in his prime was an absolute freakish Guile player, however he had never faced off against Ryu players of Tomo or Watson’s caliber and fell prey to this very same tactic (You know…the night of where it was just “Practice”). To point it out to you…If you can do this…Guile has almost no chance of winning.
You watch Kurahashi’s matches again, and see how many players that’ll punish him for throwing out Guile’s best pokes consistently. So to me, I don’t know how much more simple I can make it out to you that Kurahashi has never played against a true OG SFII player of that magnitude and to believe that he would be “better” is hog wash. I’d vouch for Prime Tomo’s Guile>>>>>>Kurahashi’s Guile any day, night, week, month or year. Hell, it’d probably be even more worse if Tomo chose Ryu.
The mentality of how SFII is played has changed, that’s almost like someone coming to me saying that the current NBA and it’s players were better then the NBA and it’s players in the 80’s and 90’s…not gonna happen.
Mike Watson of 91-94 is 50x better then the current Mike Watson who is out of his prime and no longer plays 24/7.
That’s a tail of two different players here, and for you to undermine just how beastly and great of a player he was back in his hay day shows just how little you actually know about the Golden Era and it’s players.
Mike back in his prime was an absolute freak, and the reason why Mike was capable of playing Tomo was simply because of their footsie games.
Both played Ryu, and when Ryu vs Ryu square off against one another in Pre-ST, it came down to one crucial factor…Footsies. Mike at the time was about as deadly as Tomo was in that, if you throw out one poke that didn’t hit…you eat an auto-sweep from Ryu (Btw, which Top ST Japanese player punishes whiffed pokes on reaction now a days??? None, and they are supposedly better? :tdown:).
I do not know the entire details of their match ups, however Jeff did explain that when Tomo and Watson went down Ryu/Guile vs Ryu, it came down to a footsie match up, with both players moving back and forth waiting to stuff, out poke, or sweep the other player.
That was the mentality of the gameplay, and why Watson whom at the time was at peak would have given Tomo the best fight. Jeff in Hyper Fighting destroyed everyone within that game, however he would lose by a land slide to Tomo, while Watson would be the most effective player to fighting Tomo.
Even though Watson gave Tomo the most trouble, Tomo still dominated when the two squared off. So no, I disagree with you completely, you again do not give enough credit to how simply good, and dominant Mike Watson was in his hay day.
If we pit a Mike Watson in his prime vs any Top ST Player in CE/HF/Super, they would be in a rude awakening. Like I said, the OG SFII players were the truth, their mentality and their gameplay speaks volumes. Tomo dominates all of the biggest tournaments in the US during the strongest competitive era of SFII, while every top player who’s competed against him says he was the best and he’s somehow “not as good” as he’s claimed to be…right.
Before I end, I’m going to state this right now, it’s very clear by a few posters on here, that they really do not truly understand the true fundamentals of how Pre-ST was played. The mentality, the reaction times, the real essence of how much of an advantage it was to stay ahead by just a poke’s worth of damage, and how incredibly important it was to really know footsie games and such.
Newer gen. of SF players today will watch top players in SFII today and go “Wow, they are the best”…however they don’t even realize that the fundamentals of SFII have dropped off the high horse years ago, and that what the players are doing currently today in SFII would have been only Upper-Tier level at best in the Golden Era Days.
Ppl JDK.
But BTW there is a match of Kurahashi vs Watson (and Valle, Choi, and others) from 2000 I think? Those were pretty good matches but could be it used to compare skills?
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=kurahashi+vs+watson&search_type=&aq=f
Wow, this discussion is too silly. On some who would win in a wolverine vs optimus prime fantasy matchup tip. Leave it for youtube.
I’m a 100% sure the japanese also have their OG SFII hero who they proclaim to be the best that ever did it. Who would win though? Unless you have a Delorean you’re willing to lend out, It’s all speculation.
No hate btw, but there is really no benefit in all this.
TrueSephiroth: You should just give up man. You’ve said all you need to say. There’s no changing people’s minds, especially if they’re not from the US. First of all, this is SRK, where Japan is the best at everything. Secondly, the world hates the US which leads me to the point that it is hard for a non-american (like the ones arguing with you) to believe that ONE AMERICAN could be better than the best of Japan.
When you look at it like that, it’s that simple. Let people believe whatever they want to believe. It’s all theorizing at this point.
it might all just be theorizing, but I identify with the point of view Emil is speaking from. that was also probably a time in which the level of play overall was lower
that was a time when fighting games were simpler. There were no parries, FA, FADC, supers, CC, K grooves or whatever. In each new game of SF the gameplay is shifting further and further from what top level play in HF was all about. As an example meaty attacks in SF4 are practically useless due to the increased reversal window, footies are also useless in SF4 thanks to FADC, ultras and supers that take 50% off for a whiffed move.
The skills neccessary to be good in today SF games just aren’t the same as the skills needed to be good at HF.
for those us vs japan st matches back in 2000, does anyone know what sticks they played on? if the matches were in japan I wouldn’t be surprised that they forced the americans to play on japanese cabs which they may not have been used to.
Heres a relative rusty blanka train from jeff
[media=youtube]67AxITnluCY[/media]
LOL the world hates US? And… TOMO OHIRA was american? native? that name doesnt sounds american enough…
And yes, games have evolved/de-evolved into simpler/flashier/easier to conect combos than zoning/spacing/footsies etc.
Sure CC, parries, FADC, ETC requires some skill but not more than the one needed to land a combo in the old days.
BTW guys what do you think about the still alive Korea SF CE scene? How do they compare to the golden era? Those guys have crazy skills for the vids I have seen so far
^ I don’t know who you are, but I like your style!
I have not seen but I believe.
can we @ least stick to the same game. Its 100x easier to jump over a FB in sf4 than it is in the older games. Have you seen the backside hitbox of a projectile in SF4? its basically non existent. The speed of the FB’s are also way off by comparison if you don’t compare EX FB’s. I only say this because 90% of the time a FB is going to be in the form of a regular FB since EX takes a bar.
Just for reference, is there anyone with a similar record to Tomo’s? (Won virtually every tournament, never beaten by even the top players etc?)
I don’t mean to diminish Tomo’s legacy (it’s already set with him being the top US SF2 player anyway) and my apologies if I heard incorrectly but Tomo lost the WW nationals to Roger Chung, although this was back when he was learning SF2. After mastering the game, he was beating out the rest of the top 4 Worlds Finest players (Roger, Willie, and Tony) and dominating pretty much everyone else. When CE came out, Tomo won nationals and Schaeffer and Watson rose up right behind him. So even though Tomo quickly grew to become the best player by tourney wins, he, like anybody else, didn’t start the game unbeatable. As intangiBLZ mentioned, this situation sounds pretty similar to Justin Wong’s dominance during the years he focused primarily on MVC2.
One other thing to recall is that the SF2 games before ST were slower so punishing Guile’s c.MK, while still not easy, was certainly easier, esp. in CE or earlier and if you were looking for the opponent to use it. Likewise, it was easier to jump up past fireballs with the slower speed. I’m sure players from the CPS1 era have better footsie skills but that’s simply because they didn’t have other skills to manage at the time (like super meters), like when a blind person has slightly enhanced senses in other areas.
Let’s all take a page from Jeff Schaeffer’s videos and accept that we’ll never know which country was better. Both sides played 8 hours a day from all I’ve heard so it’s clear they both got their practice in. Tomo and Tachikawa were legends of their time but we’ll never know how good they are now. Even though their technical understanding of the mechanics may not be great compared to everything we know now, that stuff honestly takes a back seat to “feeling” the game (by recognizing spacing, situations, properties, etc.). And the fact that SF2 tourney players still do very well in ST/HDR tourneys with not a huge amount of practice indicates that even at that time, the competition couldn’t have been less than excellent. So for the past vs. today, let’s not get into it; just respect the past (not idolize) and focus on the present.
more points like this need to be made.
worshipping excellence is fine. blindly worshipping it is annoying as hell
with the point you just made, it would also be much easier to use a 1 frame hurricane kick