No vids of US SF's 'Golden Era' & best_ever player!?

Combos were around since the dawning of SF, however it didn’t dominate the strategical aspects of it. He does not like SF4 because of all the tide turning Ultras and the juggles. Which are very frequent and common in current SF games.

Case and point here, footsies and zoning do apply in SF4, however can you claim it would apply as much as SF games without such universal systems? Look at Wong vs Daigo at Evo2k9, Wong’s footsie game was vastly superior to Daigo’s, however Daigo compensated his lack of footsies with Ryu’s options to land Ultra.

Even myself as a Ryu player, obviously I’m not as good as Daigo, but even I can compensate my poor footsie games with the accessibility to Ultra. I can lose much of the round, however one SrkxxUltra can shift it to either my advantage or break even with my opponent. In a game such as SFII:HF, if I don’t bring out my A-Game footsies, I’ll struggle or lose flat out, because Ryu players have to rely on this far more so then in a game such as SF:IV, where fishing for that Ultra is one of the Top-3 or Top-1 best option for him.

In OG SF games were Supers did not exist, as Jeff stated “winning by a sliver was huge”. Any game where Supers start to apply, this no longer is the same case, because if you land that Super, or in SF4’s case, that Ultra. You can literally change the tide, and the mistake of throwing out a whiffed poke is huge in such situations, with these added additions.

So take SFII:HF, if your losing to me by a few pokes worth of damage, and without any easy access to juggles or landing big damage, it’s far far more difficult to comeback from your mistakes. However in SF4, it doesn’t matter if your winning by 50% more life, because one mistake can lead to you sucking in an ultra and that 50% advantage can be gone on a whim.

Those differentials are what makes most players of the past dislike current SF games, where you can easily turn the tide of a match up, even for your poor gameplay throughout that round.

Footsies are also not the same as they were in the OG Era, and not to “downplay” current players however footsie games for Top SF players today are not on par to the footsie games that were being applied in OG SF era. In fact, the average current SF player’s footsie game is nowhere near as good as the average SF player back in those days.

Why would players like Jeff, Watson, etc, etc of that time need to “make shit up” about Tomo’s abilities, or their own?

Jeff clearly stated himself that his younger in his prime self could reaction uppercut Headbutts from the distance of the start fight of a round. Tomo was stated to even have faster reactions then Jeff. Tomo is also the only player that I know who could literally abuse Ryu’s 1-Frame start up inv. hurricane kick. Listen to Jeff talk about how Tomo beat his HF. Blanka Train’s strategy with it…up against normal pokes.

That’s nearly impossible to do in a real top competitive match up, but the guy does and not only that, but he flat out, takes out Jeff’s Blanka. Even in one post, I remember Watson saying that Ryu’s inv. hurricane kick was arguably the greatest move in HF. However, to make it become that #1 best move, your reaction time would have to be absolutely amazing to make it that effective, so it goes to show how good OG players of that time really were.

So no, these things are not bullshit, and are not some random garbage to make these players better. They simply were just that good. The highest lvl of competition will almost usually breed out the best players, case in point during WW/CE/HF with Tomo.

Also, reaction times do falter as you get older, even from my own experience, I simply cannot react the way I used to back in the mid-90’s where I was at my prime. So yes, I can relate to their statements and agreement.

However, it’s a factor of alot of things as well, if your not playing 24/7, and you lose your dedication, plus you do not have the same reaction time, it all factor’s in. This is hugely apparent today, just look at the current Watson to the in his prime Watson.

Watch the 94 Super vids of Watson in there is an astronomical differential in his footsie, zoning, reaction time in contrast to his latter versions. It’s just not the same, so even if Jeff, Tomo or whomever decided to get back into SF, and play 24/7. They still would not be at the same level as their younger counterparts. Jeff even talks about how fast his reaction time was at the height of his prime in this thread (go look it up, because I won’t do it for you), and I guarantee you he would not have that same ridiculous reaction time today.

There is absolutely no need for the top players at the time (Jeff, Watson, Kuni from Japan etc, etc) to lie about Tomo’s feats and abilities. Hell even James Chen in one interview spoke of Tomo’s unmatched Street Fighter skills when he went to two World’s Finest Tournaments. Tomo during that actual tournament stated that he would only use the short to defeat his next opponent.

Tomo picks Guile and does nothing but shorts, but more importantly he destroys his next opponent doing only this. Again…which top player today would just randomly do this during the biggest tournament and make it look like childsplay? Tomo was the truth back then, and so were the other Top OG players, and what they did sure weren’t fairy tales.

Yeah basically what he said. SF4 is pretty much the worst of the SF games at this point IMO. Ultras are so ridiculous. You don’t get poked out of them due to every goddamn thing having startup invincibility, you can get into them easy, you actually get the meter for them just for getting beat up, not to mention the fact that with an FADC DP, the shit is pretty much risk free.

Essentially, good footsies is a good way to eventually earn somebody else an ultra meter and eat a random ass ultra.

C’mon dude. Give the game some slack. It’s the first in a series and hopefully ultras will be toned down a little.

And even if not, they’re not so much of a problem as you make out. Believe it or not there are some matches where the Ryu never manages to land his ultra. :tup:

Don’t get me wrong, I hate ultras also. Getting an advantage for taking damage is bullshit.

My point was, yes the ultras can turn one mistake into being even after dominant the whole round. But isn’t it the same way in older SF2 games? You could get hit with one jump in and be stunned, restunned, and dead in a combo.

Please don’t take this the wrong way. I’m not attacking OGers or WW, HF, whatever. I’m not just an 09er butthurt about an insult on SF4. I’m just inquiring as to some of the old school players line of thought and clarifying in my mind the issue.

This is true, sometimes there were random dizzies, but those have been played up significantly in recent years, and weren’t actually that big of a deal. You would pretty much never see a random dizzy due to how safe you had to play it most of the time. Jumping in at the beginning of the round is a scrub move, and if you get a dizzy off of it, your opponent probably sucks, and you probably do too, lol.

These are little issues that only popped up once in a blue moon, whereas ultra bullshit happens EVERY SINGLE ROUND if there’s a ryu, a sagat, or whoever else. Even in the odd round where they don’t hit it, any FADC DP is essentially an ultra thrown out and blocked with little to no risk of punishment.

DP trade to Ultra is the biggest bullshit ever.

I’m starting to see your point, the ONLY way bullshit happens in WW and HF was if you made a mistake. Whereas in SF4, yes bullshit happens if you make a mistake, but it can also happen randomly.

Is that it?

Yes, you can get damage, however comparing a jump in to an Ultra is not the same case. One is super, super high risk (jump in), the other has nowhere near the same risk factor. Not only that, back in the OG days, with the domination of zoning, footsies and spacing the way they were, it was extremely rare to get in a “dizzy combo” or big damage factor. Which is why I said, Combos were not a really huge factor during the height of the Golden Era.

However in a game such as SF:IV…how many times more then not, do you see Ultra’s be a factor into turning a match up? Far more frequent, then what you would have seen it a big combo being a turning point in OG SFII.

Remember, in OG SFII, when you somehow came back to win, it was because you out footsied, out zoned, and out spaced your opponent 90% of the time then getting in a jump into into a 3-hit combo damage.

That’s the real differential between the two, because one happened very rarely (that’s why during tournaments at the time, when you did land the “big” combo, it was amazing, just watch Super 94 with Watson, you’ll see him do a 3-hit combo with Guile and everyone’s like “WOAH!?”, while 99% of the time he wins by sheer positioning and footsies), while the other is a more daily basis thing. Also, to the other poster, even if the Ultra was never used, it’s the fact that the Ultra is there which can change the entire key match up.

If Ryu has a fully metered Ultra…everyone is watching out for it now…one mistake can potentially = nearly half your life…that’s a huge pay off for punishing a mistake, and it doesn’t even have to be a big one at that, in OG SFII, most mistakes either involved trade offs, or damage equaling to that of a sweep, much more different then a single move that can deplete 40%+ of your life.

Also, I’m not trying to diss SF:IV either, it’s a solid SF game, however I’ve always believed that Pre-Super SF games had the real and true domination essence of SF fundamentals.

It’s about risk vs reward.

In HF, if you throw out a poke, there is very little risk of you getting punished for it, and in return, there is very low reward damage-wise for you hitting with it. It’s just to help maintain your spacing. If you throw out a fireball, it helps with your spacing a little more, and if it gets jumped early, you get hit with more damage, but a good player won’t try that unless you’re predictable. Higher risk, higher reward. DPs beat out lots of stuff and do high damage, but they’re very high risk if blocked, high risk, high reward.

In SF4, if you throw out an FADC DP, there is almost no risk. It’s got invincibility, it recovers quick enough for you to follow up with a mixup, and if it hits, it gets you half life depending on the characters. Shit is whack.

Actually, I tried posting something like what you said about risk vs reward in a different thread a while ago. I got flamed out of there though.

http://forums.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=208422

On page 2.

Looks like that was a combination of things.

  1. Somebody did predict and punish accordingly. The teleport is supposed to be punishable if you see it coming. Was the punish damage fair? Probably not, but of course that’s debatable.

  2. People just like SF4 for w/e reason. Frankly I think it’s kind of a shitty game. Because so many people like it, they take this as a sign that it’s good and talk shit to anybody who says anything different. There’s nothing wrong with it really, but frankly, this is a SF4 centered site at this point, so talking shit about SF4 won’t get you far. I mean, these are the same people who get hype when they see wakeup DP FADC ultra. Shit makes me the opposite of hype.

FWIW. http://biology.clemson.edu/bpc/bp/Lab/110/reaction.htm#Age

http://biology.clemson.edu/bpc/bp/Lab/110/reaction.htm#Age

probably what you meant, figure I’d clarify though.

ty a lot

I’ve always about this, but after learning how reflexes worked it sounded like BS. nice to have validity.

btw, does Ryu still have that 1 invuln frame hurricane kick?

ryu maintained some invincibility on his ground tatsumaki from CE to ST. However the length of the invincibility decreased so his ST version isn’t as abusable as CE or HF was. Though I don’t remember exactly how many frames it was invincible. Though Akuma in ST was supposed to have the same amount of invincibility on his tatsumaki as Ryu did back in CE/HF.

Can’t believe someone actually compared sfiv to og sf or hyper fighting in this case. Dear god. I applaud truesephiroth for having the patience to respond.

I’d just like to say OGs are just the truth. Some of you guys have no idea. It’s funny that Choi and Valle are still dominating now but really they are a shadow of their former self. Age does make a big difference.

Anyway, here’s a vid of Norm playing ST in 2007.

This guy was an OG HF Chun player in the golden era. In fact, I believe I saw his name on the gamepro scan where they rank the players…I believe he was number 10. His name is Norman Ho.

I got a chance to play him in casuals HF in the 2007 at the 3rd cal poly HF tournament. The one where Mike Watson used Guile to beat Ken to win the tournament (the video posted two pages back where guile perfects ken) was the second HF tournament and the only one where vids were recorded, this was in the 3rd. Now I got 2nd place at the first HF tournament in 2007, and 3rd at the second tournamentt, so I’m no slouch.

Anyway, I played this guy at least 10 matches, Ryu vs Chun. I did not win one of them. I honestly don’t remember if I even won a round. He completely out footsied me. I don’t remember ever hitting him with an anti air dragon punch, and every dragon punch that whiffed either got swept or I got thrown in the recovery…

OG players have insane knowledge.

Also, in 2007, the year the wolfe brothers qualified for SBO AE, Norm’s team got 3rd I believe, and he was the one that gave the wolfe brothers the most trouble.

Here’s a vid of him playing against valle in 2007 at that SBO qualifiers. This is OG american footsies here kids…if you can’t see it, you just don’t know.

[media=youtube]QBoTGNLxzOM[/media]

So dp FADC Ultra for 40% damage is BS BUT

is perfectly fine?

Well that sounds a little different from:

Justin Wong completely dominates the US SF4 scene but how did he do in Japan?
Not very good.
I’m sure Tomo was way better, so him being on par with the best players from Japan sounds reasonable but

c’mon :rolleyes:

I like bullshit damage and options. :wonder:

wicked-good post imo

as a whole CE was more based on footies with proper reward and risk options. CE bison was just something else entirely but supposively even tomo was able to never get caught in it. Plus that was recified in HF anyway.

well I’m a bit more reasonable, and we have no idea outside of kuni how the players stacked up against each other since AFAIK he was the only top player to play both set of players.

justin and tomo are two different people in 2 different games. The fact that Justin can get so far with just the CTF crew is amazing, no shame in beating Iyo, Poongyo, losing to Daigo (did better at Evo). Japans scene is just ahead of ours, if justin lived there he’d be around their level too. But this isn’t about SF4, JW, or current crop of japan players.

If there has been anything discovered about japanese players from all our matches with them is that OG cali players (JWong too to a lesser extent) tend to have better footies than current japanese players too. Why is this? Possibly because we were slightly better at the old SF2 games and developed a good footies/zoning game that japan for whatever reason never developed as well as cali players did (maybe it didn’t reach the level over there that it did here, or their OG players also retired after HF…). Well that and in most of the newer games japan wrecks shop with us but thats expected with them having an active scene while ours is on live support.

Whatever the case we’ll never know how tomo would have compared to OG japan exactly in OG SF2 games. Someone needs to make a hybrid cab and get tomo and daigo to play on it on both AE and HF.

Yeah CE isn’t really anything to be considering at this point. Most people look back at ST, and the purists look back at HF.

It isn’t fine, Dictator was stupidly good, however, Tomo dominated the Champion Edition Era with Ryu/Guile. He was the only player who didn’t get rape from the psycho crusher, scissor kick lockdown, poke you one you die bs. For him to win, and not get into any of those lock downs is absolutely amazing, and a feat of his skills and abilities. Tomo skewer’s Tier List.

How is Justin Wong comparable to Tomo Ohira and the Golden Era? Firstly, within the Golden Era of Street Fighter II, the average solid Street Fighter II player would absolutely maul and destroy the average Street Fighter II player today. They would have better overall understanding of the game, match ups etc, etc.

This was the absolute zenith and competitive scene for Street Fighter within the USA, everyone all over was playing this game. This is why the level of competition, and the average good player was that much better then today.

Justin Wong currently is a great SF player, however he did not have the luxury of having 90% of the gaming community playing the same game competitively as he is. Tomo Ohira on the other hand, had this luxury, everywhere he would go, there would have been strong competition, and dominant, great players.

Two absolutely completely different era’s, and this will indefinitely affect the overall Top Players abilities as well. So trying to say “Well Justin got whopped, what now?” comments needs to stop, because Justin Wong is playing SF4 in a far less competitive era then Tomo did, who was at the height of it all.

How is this so far fetched? “If” the best SFII players from Japan played our OG SFII players in their prime in WW/CE/HF, they would flat out lose. Again, only people who weren’t around to see that era and how ridiculously competitive it was would deny any of the OG player’s capabilities.

The reference of Jeff vs Daigo in 04 for AE has been referenced a few times before already. I know it isn’t a truly great way to gauge it, however “had” Jeff of picked up on his HF. Blanka Train tactics and got them going, Daigo would have flat out, not won a single round if Jeff had that going, however the speed of the game, 10+ years out of competition, and far slower reactions etc, etc contribute to it. Heck, he even played Guile, a character who didn’t specialize in during the height of his dominance and still won (remember, in CE, he played Sim mainly, and in HF he would main Blanka, and Sagat).

Competition for Street Fighter II within the USA, didn’t drop until the game of Super Street Fighter II…that game basically crippled the competitive scene, almost nobody played that when it came out. Not to mention alot of the best players (Tomo, Jeff) at that time were dropping the bar and moving onward to other matters, and did not play it extensively anymore.

In SFII when you break it down to it’s core, the real essence of it comes down to spacing and footsies, something that old players like Tomo, Jeff, Wats, etc, etc were absolute freaks at in their prime years. Shinji actually brings up a great notion about US players having better footsies, this is exceedingly apparent even through out the years.

In A3, Valle vs Daigo…Valle’s footsie game, completely and utterly dominated Daigo, however VC Gouki is just too powerful. In SF:IV again, Wong’s footsies>>>>Daigo’s, and if you go back to SFII, the g.o.a.t. Tomo had the #1 best footsie game.

Like I said, when you are at the highest levels like he was, it’s all about waiting for whiffed pokes, moving slightly outside of poke range to punish them. Guys like Tomo and Wats were doing this on call with Ryu, which is ridiculous. Nobody playing SFII today is doing this, period. Watch current top SFII players, nobody does this, nobody is punishing whiffed pokes anymore. I remember in one thread, I believe it was in the Evo one, Watson stated that in WW, Tomo mained Ryu/Guile…now Guile, I can understand…however for Tomo to main Ryu in World Warrior and dominate is a feat on it’s own.

If anyone, and I mean, anyone who has had prior knowledge of SFII:WW would know that Ryu is a terrible character in that game…horrible Hadouken recovery, Shoryuken doesn’t knock down at all, hurricane kick is unsafe. However, again…absolutely unstoppable spacing and footsies would be the only way to make Ryu dominate, obviously Tomo must’ve done this to make Ryu win.

Because Ryu as a character, has every single tool to win, add that with the monster footsies (Ryu’s footsie game, I’m saying it now, is one of the most difficult strategical aspects of SFII to master, even today when I watch the best Ryu players, they are only but a shadow of the OG Ryu players), and he’s a complete character with almost no true weaknesses. A testament to WW/CE/HF when Tomo would skewer tier list when playing with Ryu.

Again, don’t remember if it was this thread or another, however someone has posted that Kuni vouched for Tomo saying “if” he had played in Japan, he’d be Top-2 or 1, easily. That alone would say everything, from a player who had the experience of both Japan and the US at the time. Kuni in HF was ranked Top-5 in Japan and the US, and this can give you a comparison of just how evenly competitive both countries would have stacked to one another. So to me, to believe that “we weren’t as good” is a severe understatement, if we could “magically” pit the Prime players from both countries and have them play one another, I’d vote for USA easily, especially in HF (Tomo, and Jeff were too, too, too beastly).

Although this is off track, however someone needs to confirm this, but back in HF…didn’t Japan have E. Honda ranked #1 in that game??? Over Ryu? Blanka? Guile? Sagat? What???

So yes, if Tomo was in his prime right now, playing SFII (Not ST) everyone would be watching and taking notes of his “strategies” on youtube, including Japan. He had the most dominant Ryu/Guile ever seen, he had the most dominant spacing and footsie game, arguably the two biggest key factors at the highest level of SFII gameplay. Seriously, who would bet against him? Unless you don’t like money of course.

Don’t let the current “fighting game” scene be compared to the OG days where even your mother, father, uncle, aunt, brother, sister etc, etc would have been skipping school, work, being divorced to play SFII 24/7.

Case and point, current SFII players were and are not on par with the OG SFII players of old.