No Hype

[purbeast]

The game is fucking atrociously boring to watch.
I don’t play and know a lot of fighting games. I understand SF and I understand Tekken and that’s it, yet I still watch every King of Fighters/Marvel stream, I can watch since those games are interesting to watch and make me curious about how they play.
With KI though, all I see is lockout/combo breaker/whatever and it’s just combo after combo.
Yeah there may be mind games, but they’re not obvious to the spectator, you just assume this game is just button mashing with random announcer screams.

Now don’t get me wrong lately Marvel is a hella boring as well with how much the game evolved into a 1 touch - 1 kill game, but KI for me is the king of boredom on all levels.

The only good thing I take from this game is the netcode and I hope it becomes standard among fighting games.

How can it be atrociously boring if all of the youtube videos have a ton of likes?

You can’t seriously be using YouTube likes of all things as a real metric. Most people who watch and upvote those videos are people who were interested in and like KI in the first place. The people who don’t either won’t be watching the video, or will watch the video and not do anything with the like bar. People usually don’t go out of their way to downvote things unless it’s the unpopular musician du jour, horribly offensive, or a political topic.

So what are you saying, that we should take the opinion of 1 or 2 people on SRK and use that as gospel, and dismiss the thousands of views and interest from thousands of people on youtube? Why should he dismiss the views just because they are from people who are interested in KI and like the game? That makes no sense. That would be like asking me, someone who doesn’t like 3D fighters anymore, what I think about Tekken, then thinking my opinion on it would have more basis than someone who likes and understands the game. Yeah, I’m not following that logic.

The simple fact is that not everyone is going to like everything. It’s fine that you don’t like it (or anyone doesn’t like it). I don’t have a problem with that.

What I do have a problem with though is people complaining that KI is too combo focused. The game IS combos. People are complaining about combos not doing damage either, but the sheer fact is that you can easily land 50% combos on your opponent. All it takes is 1 counter break. Or if you can’t get a read to pull off a counter break, then don’t try it and you can do the combo since your opponent isn’t trying to break it.

I’d much rather a game be fun to play and boring to watch, rather than a game be boring to play but fun to watch. But this game is really fun for me to watch because I play it and understand what is going on.

Personally, I think this game’s (and SFxT’s) common defense of saying “it’s not for spectators” is comparable to bad movie directors saying their film is “not for critics.”

People wouldn’t have that much of a problem with the game being combo-focused if the combo system was actually interesting. It seems open-ended on paper, but the Opener->Double->Linker->Double->Ender thing ends up making characters have similar combo structures despite supposedly having unique combo traits. Someone will inevitably cry foul at this, and point towards other games’ A->B->C magic series. But in those games, the magic series is merely a starting point, a suggestion and a basic idea about how attacks usually chain together. It doesn’t take long for players to develop combos that go well outside that series. In KI, the series is a mandate. There are limited opportunities to go outside the designated combo path, and you won’t get any meaningful damage unless you end your combo with specific moves.

But really, I don’t think being combo-focused is directly the main issue; it’s a casualty of the game being too breaker-focused. The game simply can’t have as intricate a combo system as other games because it needs to accommodate for breakers. And then the breakers hurt the game in other ways because there’s no real way to heavily punish bad decisions thrown out in neutral because the opponent can always break and eliminate the damage.

Again, who are these “people” you are talking about? You and a handful of people in this thread? What about the thousands upon thousands of people who are enjoying the game as it is, and have no problem with the combo system, and enjoy watching videos of the game?

But yes I do see how it can be boring from a spectators point of view, and again that does not matter to me one bit because I play the games not watch them, and it’s fun to play. I also have not seen more than a couple people who have actually played the game that do not immediately feel drawn to it and enjoy it. And many of them criticized it before they played it. You even stated you don’t play the game, which doesn’t matter from a spectator point of view, but your opinion probably won’t matter to many people who have played the game. You really have no clue just how the combo/counter breaking plays out when in the match because you haven’t played it.

Combos and breakers are what make Killer Instinct Killer Instinct. I really REALLY hope that DH ignores all of the people that are complaining about them and want KI to be more like another game they enjoy, and keep KI being KI. That said, if they do make some tweaks to them for the better that would be fine with me, but to remove parts of the basic KI fighting engine? No thanks.

[Crabcakes410]

I like watching the game. When the players get better so will the view-ability in my opinion even though I like it now. Soon I’d imagine people will start using short shadow combos and different juggles.

[musacci]

and dismiss the thousands of views and interest from thousands of people on youtube?

The numbers you are giving represent the very few HP left for this game to live

[traxus]

No, the combo breakers are broken based on the one getting hit matching the strength (L,M,H) of the attack that is hitting them, and if it matches they break. If they don’t match they get locked out. The only difference is during shadow moves, where you have to press the break buttons on 3 of the 5 hits of a shadow move. It’s fun baiting counter breakers during shadow moves though, I’ve been doing that a lot recently.

So… how exactly is that different from the marvel TAC guessing game?

[purbeast]

No, the combo breakers are broken based on the one getting hit matching the strength (L,M,H) of the attack that is hitting them, and if it matches they break. If they don’t match they get locked out. The only difference is during shadow moves, where you have to press the break buttons on 3 of the 5 hits of a shadow move. It’s fun baiting counter breakers during shadow moves though, I’ve been doing that a lot recently.

So… how exactly is that different from the marvel TAC guessing game?

Because you can react to it. If you see a light linker/auto double, you break with lights. If you see a heavy linker/auto double you break with heavies. In marvel it’s 100% guessing.

[purbeast]

and dismiss the thousands of views and interest from thousands of people on youtube?

The numbers you are giving represent the very few HP left for this game to live

But the handful of people complaining about it who haven’t even played it represent everyone else.

Right…

[Niitris]

I’m hearing a lot of things, so I just want to chime in.

First off, my stance hasn’t changed; I don’t enjoy watching KI3 at it’s current state… the game just isn’t for me as of now. I will say that I enjoyed watching KI1 (SNES version) even if the mechanics were shit. The pace was fast and combos were satisfying (when they weren’t broken). So I would prefer the damage (and pacing) to be more like KI1 (but of course more refined). All that said, I’ve been convinced that the game should be left alone (and given time to mature) instead of rushing to make that change (since Season 2 will be here in a handful of months anyway).

I really want to get into this game but I just can’t commit myself to watching it, and I’m not playing a game I don’t enjoy watching. Believe it or not, streams (and videos) are advertisement. When a game looks good on stream, it compels people to want to give the game a chance. YouTube likes/dislikes (while not irreverent) isn’t the best barometer because most people watching would actively search for those videos. It’s putting on a show for the live audience that’s a better indication IMO. Same way how you can like a music artist but dislike his/her live performances.

I do believe that from a mechanical sense, the low damage output gives the impression that it promotes sloppy play. It makes the neutral game seem less rewarding than it really is (this is not taking the breaker system into account). At least you can’t inflict damage for a successful breaker (but you can be juggled). I’ve always felt defensive mechanics (like Combo Breakers) should never reward a player with damage in any form (but that’s just personal preference).

Another mechanical gripe I have is that jumping (not DPs or anything) appears ridiculously safe. If you’re in the air, there is very little chance you’ll get hit with a 50% combo.

This is personal preference, so I’m not arguing this point (if you disagree then whatever):
Onto the spectator part, I’ve always preferred games where the combos deliver impact without stopping the flow of the combat. I don’t like KI3’s combo impact and how it effect’s the momentum, and KI3 isn’t the only game I feel this way about. I’ll continue by saying that the Breaker System actually kinda solves this problem because the flow still exists (since the player is trying to break the combo). I understand why Potential Damage was put in place. But because of KI3’s Potential Damage mechanic, I don’t feel the impact until an Ender is done… by the time that is done, the flow of combat dissipates for me.

I know it sounds like I’m whining about things I don’t like (because I am), but I wouldn’t be doing that if I didn’t care. I don’t want KI to be stripped of it’s identity, but I do believe in being open to changes. Wanting a game to be more like something else for the sake of being something else isn’t “right” (and I can understand why people would defend how KI3 is now), but being too rigid is just as counterproductive.

[system]

^ I agree.

I tried enjoying this game but it just doesn’t reward the neutral game at all. I think if the game employed higher damage output and a more traditional combo system it would be far better.

[Saitsu]

So you want it to be something else?

I think what needs to be addressed is…do you want KI to be a better KI? Or do most of you need to admit that no matter what, a KI that tries to be KI will never be a “good” fighting game to you? It’s a legitimate question that needs to be asked because let’s be real…the first two KIs were not very good fighters by their gameplay. Their presentation carried them through everything. So again, would you prefer KI to just refine its own mechanics, or toss them aside to be more like its competition so it can feel like what you believe to be an actual “legitimate” fighter?

[onyx]

^ I agree.

I tried enjoying this game but it just doesn’t reward the neutral game at all. I think if the game employed higher damage output and a more traditional combo system it would be far better.

Sounds like you want SF4. I think the Damage output is fine 2 combos can take a life bar away, and the reward for the neutral game is a combo… I dunno man, i think you wasted your $700 for real, but you were never really sold on the game in the first place so im not sure why you bought it.

[system]

So you want it to be something else?

I think what needs to be addressed is…do you want KI to be a better KI? Or do most of you need to admit that no matter what, a KI that tries to be KI will never be a “good” fighting game to you? It’s a legitimate question that needs to be asked because let’s be real…the first two KIs were not very good fighters by their gameplay. Their presentation carried them through everything. So again, would you prefer KI to just refine its own mechanics, or toss them aside to be more like its competition so it can feel like what you believe to be an actual “legitimate” fighter?

For me, I think the original KI had mechanics worth preserving. It had high damage output on stray hits, the combos all hit hard and the breaker system was very strict…I don’t mind KI being KI but I think the direction this game took wasnt the best path IMO.

^ I agree.

I tried enjoying this game but it just doesn’t reward the neutral game at all. I think if the game employed higher damage output and a more traditional combo system it would be far better.

Sounds like you want SF4. I think the Damage output is fine 2 combos can take a life bar away, and the reward for the neutral game is a combo… I dunno man, i think you wasted your $700 for real, but you were never really sold on the game in the first place so im not sure why you bought it.

Yeah I pretty much wasted 700$ for nothing but I guess was bored of last gen fighters and I was hoping KI would be SF4 with KI combos in it lol. It was my fault for expecting this I guess.

[purbeast]

Also not sure if anyone else knew about this, but I was getting so annoyed with hearing people’s kinect on my speakers, so I went looking through the settings on the X1 just to see if there was something in there that I had missed. And low and behold, in the privacy settings, MS has slipped a ninja update in there. There are now settings to only allow friends to communicate with you via text and voice.

I turned that on and had a much better experience playing online against randoms than I had prior to that. Not sure when MS slipped that in there, but there are a lot of options in there that were definitely not in there a few weeks ago when I was looking for the option to turn voice chat to friends only.

[Saitsu]

So you want it to be something else?

I think what needs to be addressed is…do you want KI to be a better KI? Or do most of you need to admit that no matter what, a KI that tries to be KI will never be a “good” fighting game to you? It’s a legitimate question that needs to be asked because let’s be real…the first two KIs were not very good fighters by their gameplay. Their presentation carried them through everything. So again, would you prefer KI to just refine its own mechanics, or toss them aside to be more like its competition so it can feel like what you believe to be an actual “legitimate” fighter?

For me, I think the original KI had mechanics worth preserving. It had high damage output on stray hits, the combos all hit hard and the breaker system was very strict…I don’t mind KI being KI but I think the direction this game took wasnt the best path IMO.

^ I agree.

I tried enjoying this game but it just doesn’t reward the neutral game at all. I think if the game employed higher damage output and a more traditional combo system it would be far better.

Sounds like you want SF4. I think the Damage output is fine 2 combos can take a life bar away, and the reward for the neutral game is a combo… I dunno man, i think you wasted your $700 for real, but you were never really sold on the game in the first place so im not sure why you bought it.

Yeah I pretty much wasted 700$ for nothing but I guess was bored of last gen fighters and I was hoping KI would be SF4 with KI combos in it lol. It was my fault for expecting this I guess.

Except KI had all of that IN SPITE of its system, not because of it. The breaker system was strict but due to how it was implemented, big combos were NEVER a factor. Stray hits did a decent amount but the footsies that could be done at the time were pretty awful. So it was a matter of going through awkward footsies (due to the tech at the time) and landing your short, high-damaging unbreakable combo and going back in again. Mixups were irrelevant.

To make the new KI how the old one was, you might as well remove combo breakers, have combos last no more than 3 seconds and have them all do 50% if they land and have stray hits do a lot. THEN you’d have the original KI without any delusions of being anything more. The only difference would be that throws are better and there would actually be legitimate footsies.

Is that the game you want?

[Niitris]

Actually, (disregarding damage levels) the combo system itself is fine.

And the neutral game does exist, it’s just that damage on single hits and the initial hits of a combo makes it seem like it doesn’t. The goal of the neutral game is to set someone up for a combo. I still think that single-hit damage and initial hits should have more impact, but that would require the entire damage dynamic to be changed so that combos are still the go-to option (without being grossly overpowered).

KI3 is a “Killer Instinct” game at it’s core while actually being a good fighting game (even with it’s pseudo-guessing element). It just has some quirks that I don’t enjoy (which I can say about any game really).

[system]

So you want it to be something else?

I think what needs to be addressed is…do you want KI to be a better KI? Or do most of you need to admit that no matter what, a KI that tries to be KI will never be a “good” fighting game to you? It’s a legitimate question that needs to be asked because let’s be real…the first two KIs were not very good fighters by their gameplay. Their presentation carried them through everything. So again, would you prefer KI to just refine its own mechanics, or toss them aside to be more like its competition so it can feel like what you believe to be an actual “legitimate” fighter?

For me, I think the original KI had mechanics worth preserving. It had high damage output on stray hits, the combos all hit hard and the breaker system was very strict…I don’t mind KI being KI but I think the direction this game took wasnt the best path IMO.

^ I agree.

I tried enjoying this game but it just doesn’t reward the neutral game at all. I think if the game employed higher damage output and a more traditional combo system it would be far better.

Sounds like you want SF4. I think the Damage output is fine 2 combos can take a life bar away, and the reward for the neutral game is a combo… I dunno man, i think you wasted your $700 for real, but you were never really sold on the game in the first place so im not sure why you bought it.

Yeah I pretty much wasted 700$ for nothing but I guess was bored of last gen fighters and I was hoping KI would be SF4 with KI combos in it lol. It was my fault for expecting this I guess.

Except KI had all of that IN SPITE of its system, not because of it. The breaker system was strict but due to how it was implemented, big combos were NEVER a factor. Stray hits did a decent amount but the footsies that could be done at the time were pretty awful. So it was a matter of going through awkward footsies (due to the tech at the time) and landing your short, high-damaging unbreakable combo and going back in again. Mixups were irrelevant.

To make the new KI how the old one was, you might as well remove combo breakers, have combos last no more than 3 seconds and have them all do 50% if they land and have stray hits do a lot. THEN you’d have the original KI without any delusions of being anything more. The only difference would be that throws are better and there would actually be legitimate footsies.

Is that the game you want?

Actually yeah you just described the game that I want and was really hoping for lol.

However it’s unlikely it will ever be this so I’m left with a game which I must either accept or adapt to and unfortunately I can’t play KI with its current combo system, damage output and breakers. I want the game you described and its unlikely ill get it anytime soon.

[Saitsu]

So you want, again, a brand new game. You don’t want KI.

[system]

I want the KI IP under those mechanics…or hell just make 3s and replace or with KI characters heh.

[keo-bas]

You have no idea what you’re talkinga bout, shut the hell up.

I’ll gladly hold my tongue when you actually post something constructive that discredits my post. until then i wont “shut the hell up”.

[Lord_Raptor]

You have no idea what you’re talkinga bout, shut the hell up.

I’ll gladly hold my tongue when you actually post something constructive that discredits my post. until then i wont “shut the hell up”.

WAtch GG videos or play the game for more than five seconds. Again shut the hell up.

[keo-bas]

You have no idea what you’re talkinga bout, shut the hell up.

I’ll gladly hold my tongue when you actually post something constructive that discredits my post. until then i wont “shut the hell up”.

WAtch GG videos or play the game for more than five seconds. Again shut the hell up.

Yeah…so maybe it best YOU keep your mouth shut if can’t back up your shit. I’m done degrading this thread with this nonsense debate.